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Why is it hard to believe that pro-lifers really, honestly think that abortion is murder? If they believe that it really is murder, the level of restraint they've shown in sticking to lawfare and eventually succeeding in some limited fashion is a pretty remarkable story. I disagree with their starting point, but that's hardly the point when it comes to their actions.
I still have no idea how anyone can honestly believe that the Supreme Court has any meaningful role to play in this at all. I suppose penumbral emanations are powerful things, but it seems pretty obvious to me that there simply no Constitution-based policy to be had.
The fact that a lot of pro-lifers are reluctant to call for criminal penalties for the woman getting the abortion and instead place all liability on the doctor does make me think they don't really think it's equivalent to murder. That's certainly not how we would handle a woman who hired a doctor to euthanize her 3 month old baby. We would charge them both.
I do think they actually believe it's immoral and I don't expect the eugenic style arguments to convince any but the most confused pro lifers (ie people who are only defending the pro life side because it's the republican position who never really personally thought it through) but i think only a minority are consistent in their belief that it's 'murder'
And here we go again! Another time this one is trotted out!
Pro-abortion: If you lot really thought it was murder, you'd put the woman in jail! You don't really mean what you say, the real reason is that you hate women and want to punish them for being sexually active!
Someone suggests doing just that.
Pearls are clutched all over the Usual Spaces by the Usual Faces: We said it ! We told you! The monsters hate women and want to punish them for being sexually active! Vote for us or they'll throw you in jail for having a miscarriage!!!!
Remember what they said about Trump on this? So thank you for your very kind invitation, but I think I won't stick my foot into the bear trap, if it's all the same with you:
Yes. Unironically, yes.
I think pro-lifers mean what they say as far as being opposed to abortion, but I almost never meet a pro-lifer who claims to believe abortion is literally murdering a baby who wants to literally charge a woman who has an abortion with the same crime that a woman who literally murders her baby would be charged with.
Yes, you are correct that it's a bear trap of a question. It is tactically sound for pro-lifers to avoid it. But it's a bear trap because of what it reveals. Either you don't literally believe abortion is the same as murdering a baby (you might believe it's very bad, you might believe it's kind of like murdering a baby, you might believe an innocent baby died, but you don't believe the woman having an abortion has the full moral culpability of a woman who intentionally murders her baby) or you have to explain why it shouldn't be treated the same criminally. I've only ever met a handful of pro-lifers who will bite that bullet and say "Yes, she's a murderer." Everyone else has answers that sound like either cognitive dissonance or disingenuousness.
Trump's answer "horrified both sides" because he was being too honest and saying the quiet part out loud. Yes, if it's illegal, it makes no sense to say "Oh, but we don't mean punish the mother - she's in such a difficult situation." Or else you are, at the very least, admitting that it is some lesser crime than murder.
If it were possible to end abortion by jailing the mothers, I would do that. If it were possible to end abortion by letting the mothers free, I would do that. And if it were possible to end abortion by jailing some mothers and letting others free, I would do that. The practice itself is abhorrent, and abolishing it is far more important than book-keeping of charges for individuals who've engaged in a practice our society has sanctioned.
More realistically, I endorse legalized infanticide, and point out that the actual model our society appears to have settled on is that whether its a baby or a fetus is a determination the mother herself gets to make, with the fetus/child as her sole property that she may demand protection for or disposal of on her personal whim. Shades of the ancient Greek family law, as I understand it. The world is full of many evils, and will remain so no matter what happens with regard to abortion.
You think abortion is abhorrent but you support legalized infanticide? I guess I see your point in abolishing artificial distinctions (even pro-choicers often have a problem with "It's only murder the moment the baby exits the birth canal") but I honestly can't tell whether answering "The world is full of evils" with "Therefore we should legalize evil" is meant to be ironic. At what age would you make it actually illegal to kill a child?
"Endorse" might be the wrong word. If people are going to do what they're definately going to do, infanticide would be a more honest, legible way of doing it, and would incur no additional moral debt.
As to age limits, the point is that whether it's a child or not is the Mother's decision. Again, I point to the ancient Greek custom, which is where we appear to have arrived: the coexistence of legal abortion till birth (and in some cases, infanticide laws no one seems interested in enforcing) with laws that add serious extra penalties to harm caused to the unborn by third-parties might be considered schizophrenic, but in fact it makes perfect sense if one presumes that the personhood of the child is in fact determined by the mother. I mean, every possible objection to this that I can see is what we already have, so why would I object to simply being honest about it? And if we're willing to kill them when they're completely innocent, why not be willing to kill them when they grow into assholes like the rest of us?
Bonus points for restoring exposure as the method of killing, so someone else can actually come and rescue the kid and raise them as their own, which tends to drag in the point that abortion is actually a whole lot more about closure than most pro-choice people are willing to admit.
The point of the world being full of evils is a reminder, to myself as much as anyone, that none of this actually solves anything long-term. Forcing people to not kill their babies will not actually make the people on either side of that interaction less evil. When talking about morals-driven policy, it's easy to lose sight of that fact.
I don't know that laws have ever had as their primary purpose moral improvement. Sure, lawmakers might talk about how banning evil things will improve society, but mostly we make things illegal to deter people from doing them. I remain unsure how serious you are being. Presumably if you believe abortion is evil, then banning abortion would reduce the number of abortions. It would not instantly convince all the pro-abortion people that abortion is evil, so in that sense sure, they won't become "less evil," but if abortion decreases over time (and usually, thought not always, illegal things also become less socially acceptable), isn't that a moral "win" for society, from a pro-life point of view?
Ever?
Various historical theocracies would surely disagree with you. Kosher law. Sharia. Puritan colonies. More modern missions, sects, and cults.
There’s also the whole edifice of Chinese political science. I’m quite rusty and don’t remember what distinguishes Confucianism and Legalism. But there was a nice post recently about “rectification of names.” Look at some of the quotes:
This is in the context of defending state-sponsored music. Xunzi clearly believed in the power of state action to align people with morality. I don’t think that’s unusual for any era.
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