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Culture War Roundup for the week of August 14, 2023

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But I am often surprised that people are surprised that yes, orthodox Christians do in fact believe you (yes, you) are going to go to hell if you do not accept Jesus Christ. Yes, that means they literally believe every last atheist and Muslim and Jew and pagan and Hindu and Buddhist is going to burn in hell forever. (And a lot of the Protestant denominations include Catholics, Mormons, and JWs in that bucket.)

Publically stating such things is an applause light often meant to express contempt or condescension towards people of other religions, even when rationalists ignore that and treat such claims as logical propositions. It's like going on record in public saying that your opponent's children are ugly and his toupee looks fake. The fact that you actually believe these things is not why you said it.

"People say things they actually believe in order to garner approval from fellow believers." Yes, that sounds like an accurate description of a thing that happens.

Except that the "approval" part is only half of it.

In the real world, proclaiming that nonbelievers go to Hell is hostile to nonbelievers. Yes, they want other believers to approve of the hostility, but describing that as wanting to garner approval leaves out the important part.

Is it hostile? Non-believers don’t believe in hell. If they believed in hell then they would be believers. If a non-believer reads it then they would just see themselves going to fake belief place.

The sentiment is hostile. You don't need to believe Hell exists in order to understand that someone louldy proclaiming that you're going to go there probably doesn't like you very much.

If I tell someone shooting heroin that it's killing them and they need to stop, they can decide that actually I just hate them, and if they insist on doing so I certainly can't stop them. At a scale of the entire society, they're going to find no shortage of people who actually do hate heroin-shooters to conflate me with. That doesn't make their logic any less garbage.

Your insistence that Christians trying to warn non-believers away from Hell amounts to hatred and hostility seems nonsensical. Christians positing the existence of Hell neither breaks your leg nor picks your pocket, any more than your claiming our God and Heaven does not exist. To the extent that Christianity has been used to implement oppressive authoritarian norms in the past, so has literally every other ideology that has ever existed; where Christianity stands out is the number of states where it has played a significant role in allowing actual liberty, something secular humanism has a considerably worse record on.

You're free to despise Christians if that's your thing. Not liking people is legal. You're likewise free to coordinate meanness against them for believing things you disapprove of, since no system of law or custom will ever prevent such behavior. Just be clear-headed about the likely consequences of forcing several dozen million people to choose between peaceful coexistence or their faith.

If I tell someone shooting heroin that it's killing them and they need to stop, they can decide that actually I just hate them, and if they insist on doing so I certainly can't stop them

There are certainly circumstances where someone telling people this would be mainly motivated by contempt of heroin users, and where it would be correct to infer hostility. Furthermore, society has norms of religious tolerance that it does not have around heroin tolerance, and by proclaiming that your outgroup is going to suffer, you are violating norms that you are not for heroin users.

Christians positing the existence of Hell neither breaks your leg nor picks your pocket

I'm pretty sure you're quoting Jefferson out of context here.

Also, notice that actually saying "I hate you and you should die" neither breaks your leg nor picks your pocket. By your reasoning not only is loudly talking about your outgroup's suffering not hostile, literal direct hatred isn't hostile either.

Furthermore, society has norms of religious tolerance that it does not have around heroin tolerance, and by proclaiming that your outgroup is going to suffer, you are violating norms that you are not for heroin users.

There is no norm that believing in hell is an attack on your outgroup. Religious tolerance emerged from people who universally believed that their opposites were going to suffer, because the core insight is that my beliefs about the afterlife don't make much difference to you in this life. Likewise, it would be idiotic for me to claim that your insistence that my God doesn't exist harms me. If you are worried about suffering in the afterlife, you are free to do something about that. If you are not, you don't have to. That's the deal, and you don't get to alter it.

I'm pretty sure you're quoting Jefferson out of context here.

I'm pretty sure I'm applying a solid principle to a more general context where it nonetheless applies.

Also, notice that actually saying "I hate you and you should die" neither breaks your leg nor picks your pocket.

If you hate me and want me to die, that has direct implications in this life, and while it neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket, it has a strong correlation to both happening shortly.

By your reasoning not only is loudly talking about your outgroup's suffering not hostile, literal direct hatred isn't hostile either.

"Loudly talking about your outgroup's suffering" is an interesting way to phrase it. It covers both "I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no man comes to the Father but through me", and "GOD HATES FAGS". I readily concede that people can use the concept of hell to communicate hatred. That doesn't make the concept of Hell itself hateful, and the distinction is both necessary and useful if you want to maintain a pluralistic society. Any moral or ethical claim at all can be labeled hatred under your framework, and then used to exclude the disfavored from the public square. This is a bad thing to do for a lot of reasons, but doing it for a very large portion of society who already have a lot of bones to pick with the increasingly unstable social compact is just burning social cohesion for the fun of it. We Christians put up with all sorts of social bullshit already. Maybe you Atheists can try putting up with some bullshit as well.

There is no norm that believing in hell is an attack on your outgroup.

Believing that your outgroup is going to Hell is not the same as loudly proclaiming in public that your outgroup is going to Hell, just like loudly proclaiming "your children are ugly and your toupee sucks".

If you hate me and want me to die, that has direct implications in this life, and while it neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket, it has a strong correlation to both happening shortly.

This is also true for other types of hostility. If you yell in public that I'm going to Hell, that has a strong correlation to doing bad things to me.

We Christians put up with all sorts of social bullshit already. Maybe you Atheists can try putting up with some bullshit as well.

"As well"? What? You're talking as if people who are not Christian have never put up with bullshit related to religious beliefs and this is the first time. This is absurd. You are not engaged in some sort of glorious table-turning where Christians "put up with bullshit" from everyone else and suddenly you get a chance to do it back.

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