This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
A question: why do people believe that people - especially men - who are unsuccessful with romantic relationships are unsuccessful because of a lack of moral virtue? A man who's 30 years old and has never gone on a date or kissed anyone is assumed by default to be some kind of fat, basement-dwelling loser. When he is in fact a short but fit engineer, or a corporate lawyer, or a programmer for Google, he's then roundly criticized for being misogynistic or lacking in moral virtue. Occasionally, darker - much darker - suspicions are raised: let's say that there are reasons why these men frequently avoid being around unrelated children. It seems difficult for people to comprehend that an apparently healthy, gainfully-employed individual could fail to meet with romantic success despite a decade of trying...unless there is something seriously morally wrong with them.
Someone who fails at being a salesman, or a business owner, or even at playing basketball worth a damn...doesn't get that. "I'm a nice, decent, hardworking guy...but I can't sell shoes at Nordstrom, I've been working hard to do this and have dreamt of being a salesman since I was 12" is a kind of absurd complaint. He might be a fine human being and maybe he'd make a great heavy equipment operator, but he just doesn't have the talent for sales. We don't think there's something morally wrong with our hero because he can't sell shoes, or because he's a short, clumsy guy that sucks at basketball.
Because your metaphor is severely retarded. Failing to get laid isn't like failing at basketball, or failing at selling shoes, or failing at running a restaurant; it's like being unemployed. Failing at being a lawyer is like failing at sleeping with some particular girl, or some particular genre of girl perhaps. One criticizes a guy who fails at starting his business the same way one criticizes a guy who strikes out with the sorority girls at a party: for lack of skill and ability. One criticizes a guy who sucks at golf the same way one criticizes a guy who can't score with Asian chicks, for lacking some particular talent.
But we ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY criticize men who fail at every single job they try for being lazy, useless, morally worthless, losers, wastes, effeminate, overgrown boys, the cause of the downfall of Western Civ. Men who are unemployed at 30, who don't have or have never had a real job, come in for exactly the same kind of moral criticism we level at incels. When they whine that no one would hire them, we gesture at the want ads. When they whine that the jobs they can get suck, we tell them beggars can't be choosers. When they whine about the Capitalist System, maaaan, that forces them to work to live...we tell them everyone else has to work too. When they really piss us off, we bring up Second Thessalonians.
We (“we” as in mainstream blue-pilled society) do indeed shame and criticize men for being unemployed (in contrast to how we treat unemployed women), or their insufficient ambition and/or provision abilities in being underemployed or even retired early. Cue Chris_rock_unconditional_love.mp4: “I once heard my grandmother say: ‘A broke man is like a broke hand: Can’t do nothing with it’… even right now, Michelle Obama is looking at Barack, going, ‘What’s your plans, nigga?’”
However, we don’t gaslight such men or tell them pretty lies to protect employers’ wonderfulness. Employers don’t care about intelligence or credentials, they can just tell that you have toxic attitudes toward employers and employment, that your employment search is being conducted in bad faith. You clearly can’t fit a whole employer in your head and need to seek therapy. Just be yourself, work on your toxicity, and employment will happen naturally when you meet the right employer.
We tell unemployed men to get off their ass, start spamming resumes, work on their application/interview tactics. We don’t tell sexually unsuccessful men to start approach-grinding and working on their courtship tactics, as that sounds too gross and red-pilly. After all, advising to approach-grind is unromantic and misogynistic, as it implies courtship can be construed as a numbers-game and that women are NPCs that can be unlocked like boxes for loot-drops.
Employment tactics like exploiting ATS automated keyword searches and LinkedIn search algorithms, having pre-canned responses to behavioral questions, using offers as leverage to receive and negotiate other offers, can be freely and openly discussed in mainstream online spaces in ways that courtship tactics like go-to openers, having pre-canned stories, setting up date logistics to make sex occur more likely and quickly, and exploiting female mate-choice copying cannot. Not that women would fall for such tactics, of course, because women are strong and independent thinkers and because courtship and dating are dynamic processes that can’t be reduced to cheap tricks.
Once again, your antiwork crowd would argue that we absolutely do that. The lies are a little different: "If you just work hard at anything you'll get ahead!" "There are plenty of jobs out there in your field, just apply-apply-apply!" "Back in my day..." "Something Something Networking" "Show up early and stay late and be willing to do anything and your boss will notice."
This whole "Compare jobs to dates" schtick suffers from taking what is said in one's own circle and universalizing it. There are still plenty of schmucks running around who think they How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying themselves from the mail room up to the C Suite.
Personally? I have highly limited patience for able-bodied above-average-IQ young American men complaining about lack of either dates or jobs as such in 2023 America. Complain about the quality, or the spiritual fulfillment, or whatever you like, but the opportunities are out there, literally all you have to do is show up at this point. The want-ads are everywhere! Employers tell me they can't find decent workers, women can't find a decent lay, all you have to do is be decent and the world is your oyster.
Funny how these complaining employers and women are totally insulated from criticism under this perspective. Did you tell the women to lose weight, smile more? Did you tell these employers to raise their wages and stop calling their employees cunts?
All you have to do is offer a decent wage. There are of course, plenty of opportunities out there - opportunities to do shit work for shit pay. I don't mind myself - I like work and don't really have much drive or ambition to be rich. But I don't really pass judgment on anyone who thinks the whole thing stinks and certainly, there's nothing to be gained by scorning others or looking down on them.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link