This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Continuing on with The Motte's theme of the week, the Australian Federal Government has given the online dating industry a year to implement a 'voluntary' code of conduct in the face of 'online sexual violence' or presumably face regulation.
This ultimatum seems to be motivated by “An investigation by the Australian Institute of Criminology last year found three-quarters of online daters had been subject to some kind of online sexual violence in the past five years.”
Finding the referenced report 'Dating App Facilitated Sexual Violence' (their term, not mine) seems to include amongst other acts:
- Pressured the respondent to give them information about their location or their schedule
- Continued to contact the respondent even after they told them they were not interested in having a relationship with them
- Pressured the respondent verbally to perform unwanted sexual acts (eg making promises, lying, repeatedly asking or insisting etc)
- Sent the respondent an unwanted sexually explicit message
- Sent the respondent an unwanted sexually explicit photo or video of themselves
- Pressured the respondent to meet them in person when they did not want to
This would include dick pics or non-consensual sexually explicit language sent through a dating app, along with other mundane dating activity. The march to broaden the definition of sexual violence to include 'making women uncomfortable' continues.Australia, is usually a follower of countries like Canada and the UK when it comes to these sorts of policies, but it does occasionally become the first mover when there is the chance of getting a cheap political win (and to seem like it is doing something in the face of more serious issues such as the housing crisis).
The linked news article is kind of buried down the state news media's front page and references the federal government's
karensocial services minister who has previously worked on 'cyber safety' committees. There is a fair chance this is a complete nothing burger that will blow over and is just the govt making noises rather than actually intending to follow through, but time will tell.I don’t think people are fully grasping what is happening here.
The Australian government is flirting with making it illegal to ask someone on a date.
“Pressuring the respondent to give them information about their location or their schedule.”
“Pressuring the respondent to meet them in person when they did not want to.”
This is what asking someone on a date is. You don’t know if they want to until you ask.
Some have speculated in these very comments that destroying dating apps is good actually, because then people will start meeting each other and going on dates somewhere else (where exactly this “somewhere else” would be is left unspecified). This is a folly. The kind of government that bans dating apps for allowing and facilitating people to ask each other out is the kind of government which will ban in-person dating scenes too. Think that’s too extreme? This is Australia we’re talking about. I’m totally on Kulak’s side if the Australian government goes through with this. These inhuman totalitarians need to be taken out by any means necessary.
...Isn't this making it illegal to ask a second time after receiving a non-affirmative response the first time?
It seems to me that the above would be a move toward more legible dating rules, and that a lot of the awfulness of the current situation comes from a lack of legibility. It might actually be an improvement, if there's common knowledge between men and women that if the woman gives a non-affirmative, that connection is irrevocably burned.
No, it makes it even less legible. Is this "pressure" or is it playful banter that both parties are enjoying:
Him: "Let's have our first date at XYZ Mini Golf."
Her: "No way, I hate Mini Golf. And if that's your idea of a good first date then you aren't getting a date at all."
Him: "You're just saying that cause you're scared you'll lose."
Her: "Ugh. Fine. But I'm only agreeing because you're being such an asshole about it."
It's cringe. I'd be leaving her on read after that first response. I wouldn't be enjoying this "playful banter" and it would be a pressure for me to reply.
I mean that's kind of my point. In text form this exchange can be read many different ways by different people.
If you imagine it as a verbal conversation where both parties statements are dripping with playful sarcasm, then it's clear they're flirting. If you imagine it as a verbal conversation where both parties are being dead serious, then they're both being pieces of shit to each other. It's impossible to create a neutral set of rules to decide which is which, especially when it's happening via text.
Yep. And you can also have WILDLY different cultural norms. I knew a West Virginia redneck whose mom was fat and liked it cold. Redneck preferred it warm. He'd tell his mom 'come on ya walrus it's fucking cold in here'.
He and his mom got along well. Mom's a nurse, he made good and went to Harvard.
More options
Context Copy link
You get it. And the guys who have left her on read without responding have, perhaps, saved their own pride, but have also failed the shit test as much as the guys who become bruised and immediately apologize and make a list of other possible fun date ideas. Or worse: Ask her what fun thing she wants to do.
I think considering the woman's perspective is instructive, and as much as straight women generally don't understand what courtship (that's my chosen word, feel free to substitute your own) is like for straight men, men as well I think can't get their head around what it must be like for women. Namely to inhabit a world where one has a) readily available sex basically whenever one wants it, though not without possibly considerable social, emotional, and yes, possibly physical cost 2) a body that can get pregnant due to said sex, pregnancy of course being much different than the flu, or other physical ailment and d) the knowledge that, after the sex and depending upon how early it has been had, how much the man has had to invest to get it (because women are the figurative seller here), and how satisfying it was-- the man may very likely lose any long-term interest, starting you again jarringly quickly back at the beginning with a new prince charmless.
What must it be like for a girl to be treated as if she is in possession of a prize worth all of Africa's ivory and Asia's gold, then, when the post-coital tissue comes out, realize she isn't? The feeling of having been conned must be substantial.
Of course often some spark is kindled, the guy is too busy counting his lucky stars to show or feel disinterest, and a relationship may blossom into something long-lasting, if not quite the place that was promised. Or perhaps something something true love, if saying this unironically will not get me Motte-banned.
The dating dance, once I learned it (far later than would have really benefited me but not so late as to not benefit me at all) I always found exhilarating. Which is not to say I was some sort of record holder. I wasn't and am not. Having written that I also fully understand the frustrations involved, particularly when obsessiveness masquerading as love enters the fray.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link