This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
And liberals being explicitly pro-promiscuity and pro-homosexuality is even older so who's the real hypocrite here?
I don't know how clever you think you're being here but my reflexive response is the old Cole Phelps "press X to doubt" meme
I mean it's kind of right there in the name?
Doubt that people who work for a magazine called "Vice" are somewhat morally unconventional?
Basically this.
Edit: More to the point I expect the sort of person who takes a job at a magazine called "Vice" to be the sort of person who would promote vice because karma and nominative determinism just seem to work that way.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Because Vice is an outlet associated with caring far more about party affiliation of sinners than the sins, presumably.
Since that wasn't the claim...
More options
Context Copy link
https://www.vice.com/en/topic/polyamory
https://www.vice.com/en/topic/swinging
https://www.vice.com/en/topic/cuckold
Ok now you link one article about celebrating the sanctity of marriage. Just one article that says marriage is a sacred union between two people that should not be interfered with. Note there are none in the marriage tag, those are mostly about being Indian for some reason.
I mean, I'm sure if you asked them now they'd say cheating on your wife is bad, but it's only until a new article about being pegged by your girlfriend's wife is required. Taking marriage advice from Vice is like reading The Watchtower for blowjob tips.
Do you think they aren't though?
If you were to ask me whether I believe that anyone working at Vice considers marriage something sacred and worth protecting my answer would be a hard "no". Are you able to provide any evidence to the contrary?
Beyond that I'm gonna side with @FCfromSSC below
More options
Context Copy link
Ping for signal always interests me. For what it's worth, the following is simply an attempt to communicate a subjective perspective, not a claim to insight into facts or reality of any kind. I've long been fascinated by how far apart perspectives can get, and this is an unusually stark example.
You think it should be obvious that progressives care about fidelity in marriage, so if Reds act as if they don't believe that progressives care about fidelity in marriage, that must be an uncharitable cheap shot. You're pinging for signal, appealing to what should be a point of common ground between all of us. For evidence, if any were actually needed, you point to people not liking cheating. I think you're right that if a Vice reporter's friends get cheated on, they'll think that was a super shitty thing to do, and the cheater is an asshole. That seems like a probable outcome to me.
The thing is, I straight-up don't think Progressives generally care about fidelity in marriage, in any way I recognize as "caring about marriage". The reason I think a Vice reporter objects to cheating is because they are loyal to their friend, and take their side. I think if a Vice reporter's friend cheats on their spouse and lists off the reasons they did it, emotional distance, growing apart, "one time mistake" or whatever, and the reporter isn't particularly friends with the spouse, they probably side with the cheater.
Of course, this entirely hypothetical, and probably neither of us know any Vice reporters, so all we're really describing here is our models of other people. The more interesting thing is, where do those models come from? Well, probably a million little interactions... but I can list at least a few points that have updated me significantly in the direction of "Progressives do not value marriage in a way I recognize".
When I was a kid, one of the first big political events I followed was Clinton's impeachment. The pro-Clinton message was that him cheating on his wife was "a private matter" of no interest to the public. The message was that infidelity was irrelevant from a public perspective, and anyone who thought otherwise was a Christian nutjob.
Back when I still hung out on SSC, Scott had an anecdote about a situation with one of his patients; IIRC the story was that a gay couple was having relationship issues, and had come to him for counseling. One of the guys was upset that the other was running around behind his back, flirting and cheating on him, and Scott laid out his general counseling strategy. If my recall is to be trusted, it was something along the lines of helping him get over his feelings of jealousy so they could properly enjoy an open relationship, and in passing Scott mentioned that of course the jealousy was just getting in the way, because no one really expects or values monogamy/fidelity. The offhand comment shocked the hell out of me and several other commenters, and there was a back-and-forth about it that confirmed that we had not misunderstood him, this was really what he thought. It blew my mind at the time, and fundamentally changed how I looked at Scott, his writings and the community generally.
Not too long after we made the jump to Reddit, the topic du jour was Mike Pence and the Pence Rule (formerly the Graham Rule): Don't be alone with a woman who is not your wife, ever, for any reason. Pence was being pilloried in the press for strictly following this backwards, sexist, discriminatory rule, and a fair number of our progressive regulars joined in. They argued at some length that following the Pence rule should be seen as illegal, because it discriminates against female employees, who suffer reduced networking opportunities with the boss relative to their male peers. All appeals to the importance of men in positions of power taking positive steps to protect themselves and their marriages from the opportunity for scandal were summarily dismissed, often with the argument that if a man couldn't keep it in his pants, he shouldn't be in the position at all. That debate and the arguments it presented me with were one of the first times I began to simply despise the people I was talking with here. It left quite the impression; it's easy to dismiss some obscenity in the media, but to have support for it argued at length by people you know and have heretofore respected changes things significantly.
This one's much weaker than the above, being merely a passing conversation, but it's more recent so whatever. The last one happened a few months ago, in one of the threads on dating and relationships that ripple through here at regular intervals. Someone brought up a guy they knew, an academic who was sleeping with two of his grad students. Both women knew about each other, but each thought they were the one he'd ultimately pick, so both were fine with it. One of them was married, to an apparently-high-value guy, but was cheating on him with this physically-unimpressive academic. The story conveyed a general attitude of "look at this guy, winning at life!" In the replies, the people who pointed out that this was a trash disaster for everyone involved were all the most conservative religious Reds here.
...That's three strong impressions and one much weaker one, relayed because they made enough of an impression on me that I remember the details. Other examples hit me basically all the time, from all over the spectrum of media and common conversation. People talking about their and their partners' "lists" of the celebrities they're each allowed to cheat with, the general discourse surrounding Ashley Madison, or celebrity scandals, holding up the sexual revolution and its consequences as an obvious improvement, divorce as a general solution to relationship issues, all conversations about relationships, dating and marriage generally, the ubiquity of positive portrayals of cheating in movies, books and music, and so on, and on, and on. The impression that I have received is that Blue culture holds the concept of marriage as I understand it in complete contempt.
Flip it around. Suppose we're having a debate here about, say, inner-city crime rates and gun control, and a progressive here says that the Gun Culture doesn't actually care about the issue of racism. Suppose I respond "I'm not dense enough to think the Gun Owners of America don't actually care about racism. For what it's worth, I don't think you are either." suppose I then go on to claim that racism is a serious issue for all Americans, and of course Red Tribers care just as deeply about it as Blue Tribers. Maybe I even go so far as to imply that to pretend otherwise would be deeply uncharitable.
Would that argument persuade you?
More options
Context Copy link
Sure, the point is I don't think anyone at vice gives a shit about marriage. I don't think they think cheating is awesome, I think they think cheating is meh, or maybe even an anachronism, unless it happens to them. I think the closest any writer there comes to respecting the promise of fidelity is that they would suffer a narcissistic injury if they were cheated on, because most people do. So I think all this weeping and gnashing of teeth about this guy is crocodile tears at best, but more likely something like a smuggie.
Which yes, I saw your comment replying to someone else noticing it fits the smuggie form, and I can only say - Come. On. Son. You've pretty much agreed to the argument already - "Not as bad as being part of the enemy tribe, perhaps" - now we're just arguing severity. And what I'm saying is yeah they aren't 'totally ok' with it, but literally the only reason they bring it up is to tar their opponent. It is performative, and blatantly obviously so.
Tldr: I think it's pretty ironic you are accusing me of trying to score cheap political points, since that is the only reason the article exists.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link