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ymeskhout  7mo ago (text post)   2426 thread views

The Bailey Podcast E034: An Unhinged Conversation on Policing

Listen on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Podcasts, Podcast Addict, and RSS.

In this episode, an authoritarian and some anarchist(s) have an unhinged conversation about policing.

Participants: Yassine, Kulak, & Hoffmeister25 [Note: the latter's voice has been modified to protect him from the progressive nanny state's enforcement agents.]

Links:

About the Daniel Penny Situation (Hoffmeister25)

Posse comitatus (Wikipedia)

Lifetime Likelihood of Going to State or Federal Prison (BJS 1997)

The Iron Rule (Anarchonomicon)

Eleven Magic Words (Yassine Meskhout)

Blackstone's ratio (Wikipedia)

Halfway To Prison Abolition (Yassine Meskhout)

Defunding My Mistake (Yassine Meskhout)

Recorded 2023-09-16 | Uploaded 2023-09-25

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I understand how distasteful a "free heroin" arrangement would be, from the standpoint that you describe. Ultimately it boils down to a variant of "do you want to be right? or do you want to win?". I don't like property crime. The cost of shoplifting gets shifted onto me the customer. Stores also respond by putting items behind locks, or just shift their inventory to less valuable things. I would like there to be less shoplifting but I don't see a feasible or practical way to get to that point given the continuing prevalence of addicting drugs. Yeah it would suck to see someone contribute nothing to society and just wait around for their regular heroin drop, but that's preferable to me if it means a significant reduction in property crime. We're already spending money on police, prosecutions, higher prices, etc. it's just a matter of how to spend it efficiently.

If you believe the accounts in this documentary (timestamped 40:50-42:30, CW: conservative propaganda), the addicts receiving free drugs from the government proceed to exploit their higher risk tolerance by trading the clean drugs to their dealers in exchange for (presumably higher qty. of) street drugs. Then the dealers resell the government handouts to addicts elsewhere with lower risk tolerance and no access to free drug programs.

Obvious follow-up questions: Is this just a case of insufficient dakka? Also, even if it's not providing safer drugs to the population it intends to, doesn't it reduce some property crime?

I don't know enough about the Vancouver program but the black market exchange described in the video does not seem implausible to me. I hadn't considered that as a possibility. If it's a concern, one way to mitigate it is to require supervised consumption on site. On the second question my assumption would be that property crime still gets reduced, because whatever drugs the addicts use to barter means they need less money from stealing.

I don't know if I needed to mention this but the core premise behind my argument is that theft generates a ridiculously high deadweight loss. Smashing a car window ($250 repair bill) to steal a cordless drill ($250 retail) that might only net $20 on the street means that the addict is causing ~$500 worth of loss for every $20 they acquire. In that context, it's way cheaper for society writ-large to just give the $20 worth of drugs away for free.

Or… we just ruthlessly police drug use, forcibly imprison chronic drug abusers, and execute drug dealers. You have yet to articulate an argument that such a policy wouldn’t achieve it’s stated goals; you merely oppose it on philosophical and political grounds, which means you’re then forced to come up with these convoluted alternatives to maybe possibly make somewhat of a dent in the problem using non-coercive or minimally-coercive means.

I do think a strong point Kulak made in the debate was that, instead of policing drugs, you policed public intoxication/vagrancy with the punishment being a week in the stocks + caning the drug problem would solve itself fairly expediently, while preserving Scott Alexander's ability to use mushrooms for a mind expanding camping trip.

Sure, I oppose drug enforcement on philosophical grounds because I don't think buying/selling/using drugs should even be illegal. I think people have an inalienable right to put whatever they want in their bodies. Assuming drugs are and will remain illegal then your favored policy will depend on what goal you want to prioritize. Simplifying a lot but:

  • If the goal is to reduce overdoses, then supervised consumption sites
  • If goal is reducing collateral property crime, then free heroin
  • If goal is reducing use period, maybe quadrupling the current drug war efforts? Idk

I pointed out here the issue of drug overdoses in prisons to highlight the costs involved with any kind of enforcement.

The goal I’m trying to prioritize is to reduce use, because that also addresses the other two problems simultaneously. I don’t just want to stop people using drugs because I hate happiness and want to deny people a source of harmless enjoyment. As I stated in the podcast, I want to prevent people from using drugs because I can observe empirically that a substantial percentage of people who use hard drugs become astronomically more likely to commit crimes, and to become generally feral and unmanageable, as a direct result of their drug addictions.

Your argument does not seem materially different from the communist position that if we want poor people not to steal things, we should just give them as much stuff as they want, and then they won’t have to steal it.

I think you articulated your position clearly in the episode. I disagree with you on some empirics: how likely people get addicted, how detrimental drugs are (and of course how much of that detriment is innate vs. a consequence of criminalization), how much non-property crime is driven by drug use, and so on.

The stolen food parallel argument doesn't map. The basic premises for my "free heroin" position is that heavy drug addiction (namely opioids) does two things: makes it near-impossible to hold a real job and makes addicts extremely motivated to get more drugs. Combined together, addicts' ability to make money is significantly narrowed while their risk-tolerance is significantly increased. Ergo, crime becomes the only practical avenue for addicts to fund their habit, and property crime is particularly bad as a "vocation" because of the horrendously high deadweight loss it inflicts on society. The factors I outline are not present in a hypothetical scenario involving poor hungry people.

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