naraburns nihil supernum
7mo ago
(text post)
28918 thread views
Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
2.1 million is a lot of refugees. How does that measure up to previous crises, like Syria, etc? Is it effectively the same but all at once or a much bigger number?
Obviously, refugee count is far from only impact. Palestinians are not going to Europe.
Unless someone plays 7D chess and really wants right across Europe to win elections.
Unless someone plays 7D chess and really wants right across Europe to win elections.
Voting "right-wing" literally does not do anything in Western Europe.
In Eastern-Europe "right-wing" voters still overwhelmingly support fighting Russia on behalf of the EU/NATO while simultaneously asking EU politely to stop sending migrants.
The only way out of this endless All-Star loop Europe is stuck in is through violent revolution and rejection of democratic institutions.
In Eastern-Europe "right-wing" voters still overwhelmingly support fighting Russia on behalf of the EU/NATO
Why the heck they would prefer to live under Russia? Even if you would go with "USA and Russia are equally bad"[1] then still playing empire far away against close empire makes perfect sense.
Also, if you think that "fighting Russia on behalf of the EU/NATO" is happening you should discuss it with other contrarians who thing that USA supporting Ukraine is mistaken and should be isolating rather than helping Eastern Europe.
[1] they are not, unless you put high value on stuff like rampant homosexual rape in military
Voting "right-wing" literally does not do anything in Western Europe.
Even if true, then importing Palestinians is still going to boost them.
Why the heck they would prefer to live under Russia? Even if you would go with "USA and Russia are equally bad"[1] then still playing empire far away against close empire makes perfect sense.
Russia is not actively attempting to genocide the natives.
Also, if you think that "fighting Russia on behalf of the EU/NATO" is happening you should discuss it with other contrarians who thing that USA supporting Ukraine is mistaken and should be isolating rather than helping Eastern Europe.
USA should not be supporting the Ukraine government sending the average Ukrainian man who has not fled the country yet to his death.
Not sure what you mean by isolating.
Foreign policy does not have to be a 2-position switch between Cuba-style blockade and CIA-led 'color revolution'.
Perhaps the US could consider trading without meddling politically?
Even if true, then importing Palestinians is still going to boost them.
Boost what? It's certainly going to make european governments more authoritarian, but just because they police the migrants harder does not mean that they will stop oppressing the natives.
If anything, the post-9/11 policies enacted by the West have mostly been used to send right-wingers to jail over facebook posts or mostly peaceful election results protests.
Russia is not actively attempting to genocide the natives.
No matter how you call it: what they did in Mariupol, Nova Kakhovka, Bucha, Odessa and so on is not conductive to human flourishing. (and yes, this time they are less murderous than previously, though it is fairly low bar given Holodomor death toll)
Also, "is not actively attempting to genocide the natives." is passed also by EU. And basically everyone else. Clearing "they do not want murder your nation" bar is not sufficient to answer "Why the heck they would prefer to live under Russia?".
No matter how you call it: what they did in Mariupol, Nova Kakhovka, Bucha, Odessa and so on is not conductive to human flourishing. (and yes, this time they are less murderous than previously, though it is fairly low bar given Holodomor death toll)
What did they do?
What I remember from Mariupol was the Azov battalion taking civilian hostages underground into the metallurgy factory complex, much like what is claimed Hamas did, and the Russians waiting for them to come out or release the hostages.
Imo Russia has been far less destructive with Ukraine than the US with Iraq, or even previous wars in the area.
Also, "is not actively attempting to genocide the natives." is passed also by EU.
Encouraging invasion by millions of foreigners + discouraging native reproduction and sovereignty, branding right-wing nativist movements as 'nazi 2.0' etc counts as attempt at destroying European nations to me.
Perhaps the European population is broadly consenting to this destruction, and the intent is so diffuse and generalized that the finger cannot be pointed at any given group of people for this attempt, but the results are the same.
What happened to the former countries that joined the EU should be a cautionary tale, not something a supposedly nationalist country should emulate.
Have you seen photos of Mariupol before Russian army arrived and after Ruski Mir?
(also, last time I checked it was less "hostages" and more "people hiding from rampaging russian army" - for typical and quite good reasons)
or even previous wars in the area.
They attack civilians less than USSR and Nazi Germany. Congrats, if they would get worse than this it would be pretty amazing.
Still, to get "less destructive than EU" level they are quite far away. And fortunately for Poland it is not Russia vs Nazi Germany, so Russia would improve a lot to be attractive.
attempt at destroying European nations to me.
Your goalposts are moving quite fast. And yes, it is still less destructive (in both deliberate destruction and stupid self-destruction) than Russian epic efforts. Though that bar is so low that I am not happy about EU either. Being better than Russia is not enough.
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Notes -
So you guys do know all these Palestinians will end up in Europe, right?
2.1 million is a lot of refugees. How does that measure up to previous crises, like Syria, etc? Is it effectively the same but all at once or a much bigger number?
Poland alone had more Ukrainian refugees, with about one million still staying right now (depending on how you count you will get different numbers).
Total count of Ukrainian refugees was about 5-6 million, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_refugee_crisis_(2022%E2%80%93present)
Obviously, refugee count is far from only impact. Palestinians are not going to Europe. Unless someone plays 7D chess and really wants right across Europe to win elections.
Voting "right-wing" literally does not do anything in Western Europe. In Eastern-Europe "right-wing" voters still overwhelmingly support fighting Russia on behalf of the EU/NATO while simultaneously asking EU politely to stop sending migrants. The only way out of this endless All-Star loop Europe is stuck in is through violent revolution and rejection of democratic institutions.
Why the heck they would prefer to live under Russia? Even if you would go with "USA and Russia are equally bad"[1] then still playing empire far away against close empire makes perfect sense.
Also, if you think that "fighting Russia on behalf of the EU/NATO" is happening you should discuss it with other contrarians who thing that USA supporting Ukraine is mistaken and should be isolating rather than helping Eastern Europe.
[1] they are not, unless you put high value on stuff like rampant homosexual rape in military
Even if true, then importing Palestinians is still going to boost them.
Russia is not actively attempting to genocide the natives.
USA should not be supporting the Ukraine government sending the average Ukrainian man who has not fled the country yet to his death.
Not sure what you mean by isolating. Foreign policy does not have to be a 2-position switch between Cuba-style blockade and CIA-led 'color revolution'. Perhaps the US could consider trading without meddling politically?
Boost what? It's certainly going to make european governments more authoritarian, but just because they police the migrants harder does not mean that they will stop oppressing the natives. If anything, the post-9/11 policies enacted by the West have mostly been used to send right-wingers to jail over facebook posts or mostly peaceful election results protests.
No matter how you call it: what they did in Mariupol, Nova Kakhovka, Bucha, Odessa and so on is not conductive to human flourishing. (and yes, this time they are less murderous than previously, though it is fairly low bar given Holodomor death toll)
Also, "is not actively attempting to genocide the natives." is passed also by EU. And basically everyone else. Clearing "they do not want murder your nation" bar is not sufficient to answer "Why the heck they would prefer to live under Russia?".
And after https://www.themotte.org/post/705/israelgaza-megathread-1/148670?context=8#context I will limit myself to commenting that I am hopeful that your beloved Russia will fall on its face with their latest imperialism attempt and will stop such activity for few decades.
What did they do?
What I remember from Mariupol was the Azov battalion taking civilian hostages underground into the metallurgy factory complex, much like what is claimed Hamas did, and the Russians waiting for them to come out or release the hostages.
Imo Russia has been far less destructive with Ukraine than the US with Iraq, or even previous wars in the area.
Encouraging invasion by millions of foreigners + discouraging native reproduction and sovereignty, branding right-wing nativist movements as 'nazi 2.0' etc counts as attempt at destroying European nations to me.
Perhaps the European population is broadly consenting to this destruction, and the intent is so diffuse and generalized that the finger cannot be pointed at any given group of people for this attempt, but the results are the same. What happened to the former countries that joined the EU should be a cautionary tale, not something a supposedly nationalist country should emulate.
Have you seen photos of Mariupol before Russian army arrived and after Ruski Mir?
(also, last time I checked it was less "hostages" and more "people hiding from rampaging russian army" - for typical and quite good reasons)
They attack civilians less than USSR and Nazi Germany. Congrats, if they would get worse than this it would be pretty amazing.
Still, to get "less destructive than EU" level they are quite far away. And fortunately for Poland it is not Russia vs Nazi Germany, so Russia would improve a lot to be attractive.
Your goalposts are moving quite fast. And yes, it is still less destructive (in both deliberate destruction and stupid self-destruction) than Russian epic efforts. Though that bar is so low that I am not happy about EU either. Being better than Russia is not enough.
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