naraburns nihil supernum
2yr ago
(text post)
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
Apparently some left wing organizations are revealing themselves. Here is an X account claiming to represent “BLM Chicago” implicitly (but very nearly explicitly) declaring their support for the terrorist attacks: https://x.com/BLMChi/status/1711793142742073573?s=20
My questions are:
Who actually runs this account?
Have they tried to articulate what they actually mean by this?
I’ll be honest that my opinion of BLM, especially after the 2020 riots, is quite low. This seems to fit a little too well into the right wing hatred of them.
Ok the other hand: are there any stories in Jewish folklore about creating a monster and then having it turn on you?
I saw this right before reading @Stefferi claiming that "the right (apart from the explicit Nazis, of course) and at least parts of the center-left immediately smells blood in the water and starts trawling the social medias for any far-left comments that either are pro-Hamas or can be presented that way"
Not really sure what else to say. Just seems like whatever happens someone will be playing the "deflect, minimize, Republicans Pounce" game to get people to ignore it.
Yes, there are far-left comments that are pro-Hamas. However, from what I've seen in online discussions, they also get a large amount of pushback, including from fellow leftists, in ways that violent "decolonization" rhetoric would have not received, previously. It feels like a vibe shift; of course the thing about vibe shifts is that they're very hard to quantify.
I've also observed, for a long time, that there exists a right-wing tendency to use Israel/Palestine conflict and related accusations of antisemism for tit-for-tat attacks on the Left for avenging left-wing attacks on right (justified or not) for racism. This includes a tendency to vastly exaggerate the reach and importance of anti-semitic attitudes on the Left, including implying that any and all condemnations of Israel, the occupation etc. are antisemism. Again, this is not something that is limited to this conflict but a longer observation. If that's something I've noticed, that's something I'm going to say, "Republicans pounce" memery notwithstanding. Weakmanning, guilt by association etc. are basic rhetorical tactics used by all sides, after all.
As I linked elsewhere, probably the most high-profile example of pushback was this. Your particular linked example noted that the person in question had been placed on administrative leave.
The vibe shift is currently harder to quantify due to the extraordinary harshness of the Israeli response balancing the scales, but I'd still say that "decolonization" rhetoric has taken a hit (see eg this), that an Israeli campaign against Gaza of this magnitude would have left to considerably bigger left-wing counter-reaction if it hadn't been for 10/7, and that, yes, the right has smelled blood in the water and is painting with a wide brush to tar a much larger crowd with the "pro-Hamas", antisemitic image than the actual pro-Hamas anti-semitic fraction.
I really don't know why it would be so controversial to say that the Right does that. It's a faction in the culture war! That's what factions in the culture war do! Am I supposed to go with the assumption that the Right is just too damn gentlemanly to not use such a tactic when an opportunity arises?
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Notes -
Apparently some left wing organizations are revealing themselves. Here is an X account claiming to represent “BLM Chicago” implicitly (but very nearly explicitly) declaring their support for the terrorist attacks: https://x.com/BLMChi/status/1711793142742073573?s=20
My questions are:
Who actually runs this account?
Have they tried to articulate what they actually mean by this?
I’ll be honest that my opinion of BLM, especially after the 2020 riots, is quite low. This seems to fit a little too well into the right wing hatred of them.
Ok the other hand: are there any stories in Jewish folklore about creating a monster and then having it turn on you?
I saw this right before reading @Stefferi claiming that "the right (apart from the explicit Nazis, of course) and at least parts of the center-left immediately smells blood in the water and starts trawling the social medias for any far-left comments that either are pro-Hamas or can be presented that way"
Not really sure what else to say. Just seems like whatever happens someone will be playing the "deflect, minimize, Republicans Pounce" game to get people to ignore it.
Well, how am I supposed to respond?
Yes, there are far-left comments that are pro-Hamas. However, from what I've seen in online discussions, they also get a large amount of pushback, including from fellow leftists, in ways that violent "decolonization" rhetoric would have not received, previously. It feels like a vibe shift; of course the thing about vibe shifts is that they're very hard to quantify.
I've also observed, for a long time, that there exists a right-wing tendency to use Israel/Palestine conflict and related accusations of antisemism for tit-for-tat attacks on the Left for avenging left-wing attacks on right (justified or not) for racism. This includes a tendency to vastly exaggerate the reach and importance of anti-semitic attitudes on the Left, including implying that any and all condemnations of Israel, the occupation etc. are antisemism. Again, this is not something that is limited to this conflict but a longer observation. If that's something I've noticed, that's something I'm going to say, "Republicans pounce" memery notwithstanding. Weakmanning, guilt by association etc. are basic rhetorical tactics used by all sides, after all.
Hi, curious if you have further thoughts about this given the events of the last few weeks, especially things like this: https://twitter.com/RachelJessWolff/status/1719901617305084373
Have you seen any pushback from fellow leftists? Can you link examples of any?
As I linked elsewhere, probably the most high-profile example of pushback was this. Your particular linked example noted that the person in question had been placed on administrative leave.
The vibe shift is currently harder to quantify due to the extraordinary harshness of the Israeli response balancing the scales, but I'd still say that "decolonization" rhetoric has taken a hit (see eg this), that an Israeli campaign against Gaza of this magnitude would have left to considerably bigger left-wing counter-reaction if it hadn't been for 10/7, and that, yes, the right has smelled blood in the water and is painting with a wide brush to tar a much larger crowd with the "pro-Hamas", antisemitic image than the actual pro-Hamas anti-semitic fraction.
I really don't know why it would be so controversial to say that the Right does that. It's a faction in the culture war! That's what factions in the culture war do! Am I supposed to go with the assumption that the Right is just too damn gentlemanly to not use such a tactic when an opportunity arises?
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