naraburns nihil supernum
7mo ago
(text post)
29943 thread views
Israel-Gaza Megathread #2
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
Israel is not a partisan issue in the US. Both parties give it unqualified support.
In theory, support for Ukraine is bipartisan as well. In practice, not so much. Ever since 2016, the Democrats have pushed the narrative that Russia is uniquely evil and must be punished. And lately, Republican support has wavered on the the wisdom of dumping hundreds of billions into the Ukraine meat grinder.
The Democrats have made warmongering in Ukraine their thing. It will be humiliating to Biden if the war ends with Russian gaining territory.
In some ways, political support for the Ukraine war feels, to me at least, like the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. It was clear that the Democrats were against them, loudly even, by 2006 or so. But after Obama was elected we didn't really pull out quickly either, culminating with the Taliban recapturing Kabul during the Biden administration after a withdrawal IIRC mostly negotiated under Trump.
It feels slimy, but like many issues in American politics, it seems like blind polarization to oppose every action of one's opponents regardless of principles. If the Republicans had been in the driver's seat, I'm sure they'd be all in on arming Ukraine and Democrats would be calling them warmongers. But the 2016 Russia stuff does somewhat complicate things as you pointed out.
I’ve made a similar argument before. There was probably a window for the Republicans to adopt this particular cause. Once Biden backed it, though, there was more political advantage in playing the heel.
Israel has gotten a lot of egg on its face, but I do not think it has in any way been meaningfully "weakened" by the Hamas attack. If anything it is more likely it has been strengthened through greater public unity
Define ‘doing badly’. Israel will almost certainly win and it will definitely take casualties. And this isn’t on the other side of the world, and they have loose rules of engagement, so they can stick out casualties.
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
But politically Biden loses a lot more if Israel is weakened than if Russia keeps larges parts of Ukraine.
Israel is not a partisan issue in the US. Both parties give it unqualified support.
In theory, support for Ukraine is bipartisan as well. In practice, not so much. Ever since 2016, the Democrats have pushed the narrative that Russia is uniquely evil and must be punished. And lately, Republican support has wavered on the the wisdom of dumping hundreds of billions into the Ukraine meat grinder.
The Democrats have made warmongering in Ukraine their thing. It will be humiliating to Biden if the war ends with Russian gaining territory.
In some ways, political support for the Ukraine war feels, to me at least, like the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. It was clear that the Democrats were against them, loudly even, by 2006 or so. But after Obama was elected we didn't really pull out quickly either, culminating with the Taliban recapturing Kabul during the Biden administration after a withdrawal IIRC mostly negotiated under Trump.
It feels slimy, but like many issues in American politics, it seems like blind polarization to oppose every action of one's opponents regardless of principles. If the Republicans had been in the driver's seat, I'm sure they'd be all in on arming Ukraine and Democrats would be calling them warmongers. But the 2016 Russia stuff does somewhat complicate things as you pointed out.
I’ve made a similar argument before. There was probably a window for the Republicans to adopt this particular cause. Once Biden backed it, though, there was more political advantage in playing the heel.
Jeroboam made some good points, though.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Israel has gotten a lot of egg on its face, but I do not think it has in any way been meaningfully "weakened" by the Hamas attack. If anything it is more likely it has been strengthened through greater public unity
Agreed, but it will be weakened if it does badly in its future invasion of Gaza, and to avoid that outcome it might need US help.
Define ‘doing badly’. Israel will almost certainly win and it will definitely take casualties. And this isn’t on the other side of the world, and they have loose rules of engagement, so they can stick out casualties.
We don't know this. It could be that the small country of Israel takes enough casualties that they give up trying to control all of Gaza.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link