naraburns nihil supernum
6mo ago
(text post)
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #2
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
It wasn’t an initial confused claim, though, it was atrocity propaganda, which requires a stable phrase to repeat and a visual image. An IDF spokesperson doesn’t accidentally say “40 babies decapitated”.
I don't think he was a spokesperson per se, but the report did seem to originate from an Israeli soldier on the ground -- there were pictures of him on Twitter that I saw.
It's this guy -- I can't find the tweet that I was thinking of, nor be arsed to dig through the wayback machine for initial headlines which certainly conveyed the impression that there were many decapitated babies killed in some sort of daycare, with the number forty prominently featured.
Anyways, the soldier talks about plural babies and women decapitated, and the PM's spokesperson also talked about multiple babies and toddlers beheaded at that kibbutz -- so far as I can tell there's zero. So whether the claim is forty or just 'some', it seems to be a lie being promulgated pretty high up in the Israeli government, presumably to gin up support for a brutal response.
I haven't seen anything that convinces me that they cut the head off of even one person, nevermind any babies -- so your second motte is still a lie AFAIC.
Also I think you are overlooking how media ops work -- the thing is kicked off by some official-ish motte like 'i saw babies, toddlers and women decapitated -- there were forty dead babies taken out of there' and then other operatives working for the same org promulgate the bailey version specifically, citing the motte and drumming up fear and outrage.
AshLael
Just here to farm downvotes
jkf 6mo ago·Edited 6mo ago
I haven't seen anything that convinces me that they cut the head off of even one person, nevermind any babies -- so your second motte is still a lie AFAIC
But that's exactly the point. I can as easily say "well maybe no babies got beheaded but some definitely got incinerated, so that's just as bad".
Fudging the extent of the mistruth is no different to fudging the extent of the atrocity. And I don't much mind if someone is just being generally imprecise and not paying attention to every little detail of the conflict - people have lives - but if you're going to come in and complain about misinformation, I think you have a responsibility to get your own information right.
(Also, uh, while I also haven't seen any Hamas decapitations myself I absolutely saw them try repeatedly to decapitate a poor Filipino dude with a garden hoe and that was seriously fucked up)
You didn't address the second part -- and I'm not too sure about any babies being incinerated either, the only reason to think that that's what the Twitter pictures showed is some level of trust in the people sharing them. Which I lack.
Fudging the extent of the mistruth is no different to fudging the extent of the atrocity.
If no women, children, or toddlers (which is exactly what the guy said) have been beheaded, what am I fudging? That's a straight up lie. Plenty of people were/are talking about the beheaded babies (includinging Joe Goddamn Biden), so if you want to be charitable and suggest that they are just misinformed that's fine -- but I think that at least some of them were adding that exaggeration (of the original lie) deliberately. (because they work for IDF SIGINT)
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Notes -
It wasn’t an initial confused claim, though, it was atrocity propaganda, which requires a stable phrase to repeat and a visual image. An IDF spokesperson doesn’t accidentally say “40 babies decapitated”.
An IDF spokesperson didn't say "40 babies decapitated".
I don't think he was a spokesperson per se, but the report did seem to originate from an Israeli soldier on the ground -- there were pictures of him on Twitter that I saw.
Did he say "40 babies decapitated"?
It's this guy -- I can't find the tweet that I was thinking of, nor be arsed to dig through the wayback machine for initial headlines which certainly conveyed the impression that there were many decapitated babies killed in some sort of daycare, with the number forty prominently featured.
Anyways, the soldier talks about plural babies and women decapitated, and the PM's spokesperson also talked about multiple babies and toddlers beheaded at that kibbutz -- so far as I can tell there's zero. So whether the claim is forty or just 'some', it seems to be a lie being promulgated pretty high up in the Israeli government, presumably to gin up support for a brutal response.
Sure - but if you're going to complain about imprecise accusations, it's fair to ask for precision in the complaint.
Motte: Hamas killed children horribly.
Bailey: Hamas decapitated 40 babies.
It's entirely fair to object to those two claims being blurred and conflated. But it's the same kind of dishonest to fudge the lines between:
Motte: A soldier said "They cut head off children."
Bailey: An IDF spokesman said 40 babies were decapitated.
I haven't seen anything that convinces me that they cut the head off of even one person, nevermind any babies -- so your second motte is still a lie AFAIC.
Also I think you are overlooking how media ops work -- the thing is kicked off by some official-ish motte like 'i saw babies, toddlers and women decapitated -- there were forty dead babies taken out of there' and then other operatives working for the same org promulgate the bailey version specifically, citing the motte and drumming up fear and outrage.
But that's exactly the point. I can as easily say "well maybe no babies got beheaded but some definitely got incinerated, so that's just as bad".
Fudging the extent of the mistruth is no different to fudging the extent of the atrocity. And I don't much mind if someone is just being generally imprecise and not paying attention to every little detail of the conflict - people have lives - but if you're going to come in and complain about misinformation, I think you have a responsibility to get your own information right.
(Also, uh, while I also haven't seen any Hamas decapitations myself I absolutely saw them try repeatedly to decapitate a poor Filipino dude with a garden hoe and that was seriously fucked up)
You didn't address the second part -- and I'm not too sure about any babies being incinerated either, the only reason to think that that's what the Twitter pictures showed is some level of trust in the people sharing them. Which I lack.
If no women, children, or toddlers (which is exactly what the guy said) have been beheaded, what am I fudging? That's a straight up lie. Plenty of people were/are talking about the beheaded babies (includinging Joe Goddamn Biden), so if you want to be charitable and suggest that they are just misinformed that's fine -- but I think that at least some of them were adding that exaggeration (of the original lie) deliberately. (because they work for IDF SIGINT)
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