naraburns nihil supernum
7mo ago
(text post)
29942 thread views
Israel-Gaza Megathread #2
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
Because Israel was (and IMO still is) the most likely culprit given the blast size, the fact that they were bombing Gaza at the time, the fact that there have been tens of thousands of rockets fired and misfired by Hamas that never look like that blast size, and given Israel’s history of bombing health centers over the past 10 years. It’s actually amazing so far that they have managed to reverse the narrative entirely. But that’s why it’s important to see all the evidence of the event and consider it in full.
I honestly don’t understand this take. The original claim was that Israel bombed a hospital and killed at least five hundred.
It turns out that the hospital wasn’t hit but a parking lot next to the hospital. No where near the amount killed. So Hamas lied. Yet you still are believing their central claim.
But it’s worse. There was a 3P feed that certainly seems to support Israel’s story.
However, keep using pejorative Antisemitic claims like “the zionists control the media” to try to wiggle out of the evidence when of course there is plenty of evidence the “zionists” do not control the media.
You dont understand my take because you don’t know much about the attack. The courtyard of the hospital is part of the hospital, and this especially applies when the hospital is treated as a sanctuary where innocent people and bereaving families gather. The damage extended across the entire courtyard. Had the strike hit the actual hospital building, and the courtyard remained unscathed, the casualties would be less! Thousands were using the courtyard as a refuge, and to put that in perspective, at a different hospital (Shifa) there are 30,000 using it as a refuge. You can see the bodies of the dead children here.
The Israeli army is demanding for the second time the evacuation of one of the largest hospitals in the Gaza Strip, as well as the evacuation of all citizens sleeping in the hospital courtyard who lost their homes to the bombs. the hospital teams categorically rejected it #Gaza
I’m sure we’ll have someone in the thread now to tell us, well, obviously this tweet is propaganda — because we all know that Hamas had actually planned this cleverly as an IRA-inspired car bomb attack! This is the settled narrative, everything else is antisemitic FUD, like Greta Thunberg’s octopus plushy.
The Anglicans / Episcopalians who run the hospital, who are far and away the most unbiased party in this conflict, talk about hundreds of women and children dead: https://twitter.com/sgcjerusalem/status/1714333560679580130. Richard Sewell, who oversees the hospitals, tweeted before the blast that there were thousands seeking shelter in the hospital.
That guy is clearly simply repeating the casualty numbers from Hamas (he also claims a direct hit on the hospital which did not happen). Not his fault, he's presumably not in gaza himself.
It's impossible for there to have been thousands of people in that courtyard unless they were packed in standing room only like sardines, in which case how could only a few hundred have died? I can buy thousands at the hospital, but not in the courtyard.
Read the thread. It’s disingenuous to imply that hitting the center courtyard where patients and families and refugees gather is not hitting the hospital. And the Anglicans also testify that Israel had hit the hospital on the 14th, and had told them four times to evacuate. And no, he’s not repeating Hamas lines (lol), he is in communication with the hospital leadership.
So if someone steals something you had on your lawn, you'd say they burglarized your home?
Again, if you think that the courtyard was packed with thousands of people with standing room only and an Israeli strike resulting in fairly minimal property damage resulted in just a few hundred dead - none of this is even close to adding up.
What we are concerned about is the moral substance and not morally-irrelevant detail. The moral substance of burglarizing a home is greater than burglarizing a yard because the trespass violates a greater expectation of privacy and there is less of an element of temptation if something is not clearly visible. Okay… now, what’s the moral substance of attacking a hospital? That you are attacking something where innocent people gather, and where children feel safe in visiting to heal, and where vulnerable people are located. The moral substance doesn’t have to do with crumbing a wall or destroying equipment. As such, you don’t get to reduce the moral magnitude of attacking a hospital because it only took out vulnerable women and children who thought they were safe and who were looking to be healed, and didn’t cause damage to the equipment and facilities. (Hell, if we were concerned about equipment, we should ask how many hospitals worth of equipment have been kept from Palestinians due to the Israeli blockade. A separate matter, of course.)
That photo is frankly stupid. It doesn’t include the full grounds of the courtyard and ignores that many children (who are smaller) were sleeping there with their families — in war time. They’re not Scandinavians waiting for a bus stop.
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Because Israel was (and IMO still is) the most likely culprit given the blast size, the fact that they were bombing Gaza at the time, the fact that there have been tens of thousands of rockets fired and misfired by Hamas that never look like that blast size, and given Israel’s history of bombing health centers over the past 10 years. It’s actually amazing so far that they have managed to reverse the narrative entirely. But that’s why it’s important to see all the evidence of the event and consider it in full.
I honestly don’t understand this take. The original claim was that Israel bombed a hospital and killed at least five hundred.
It turns out that the hospital wasn’t hit but a parking lot next to the hospital. No where near the amount killed. So Hamas lied. Yet you still are believing their central claim.
But it’s worse. There was a 3P feed that certainly seems to support Israel’s story.
However, keep using pejorative Antisemitic claims like “the zionists control the media” to try to wiggle out of the evidence when of course there is plenty of evidence the “zionists” do not control the media.
You dont understand my take because you don’t know much about the attack. The courtyard of the hospital is part of the hospital, and this especially applies when the hospital is treated as a sanctuary where innocent people and bereaving families gather. The damage extended across the entire courtyard. Had the strike hit the actual hospital building, and the courtyard remained unscathed, the casualties would be less! Thousands were using the courtyard as a refuge, and to put that in perspective, at a different hospital (Shifa) there are 30,000 using it as a refuge. You can see the bodies of the dead children here.
Here’s a tweet from the day before the blast: https://twitter.com/fayez15479702/status/1714028862928039980
I’m sure we’ll have someone in the thread now to tell us, well, obviously this tweet is propaganda — because we all know that Hamas had actually planned this cleverly as an IRA-inspired car bomb attack! This is the settled narrative, everything else is antisemitic FUD, like Greta Thunberg’s octopus plushy.
[edit] Also, because this hasn’t been mentioned much, the same hospital was hit by Israel just three days before: https://twitter.com/JustinWelby/status/1713560288148996263
So you think there were thousands of people crowded into that parking lot and despite that the number of dead is likely under 100?
The Anglicans / Episcopalians who run the hospital, who are far and away the most unbiased party in this conflict, talk about hundreds of women and children dead: https://twitter.com/sgcjerusalem/status/1714333560679580130. Richard Sewell, who oversees the hospitals, tweeted before the blast that there were thousands seeking shelter in the hospital.
That guy is clearly simply repeating the casualty numbers from Hamas (he also claims a direct hit on the hospital which did not happen). Not his fault, he's presumably not in gaza himself.
It's impossible for there to have been thousands of people in that courtyard unless they were packed in standing room only like sardines, in which case how could only a few hundred have died? I can buy thousands at the hospital, but not in the courtyard.
Read the thread. It’s disingenuous to imply that hitting the center courtyard where patients and families and refugees gather is not hitting the hospital. And the Anglicans also testify that Israel had hit the hospital on the 14th, and had told them four times to evacuate. And no, he’s not repeating Hamas lines (lol), he is in communication with the hospital leadership.
So if someone steals something you had on your lawn, you'd say they burglarized your home?
Again, if you think that the courtyard was packed with thousands of people with standing room only and an Israeli strike resulting in fairly minimal property damage resulted in just a few hundred dead - none of this is even close to adding up.
What we are concerned about is the moral substance and not morally-irrelevant detail. The moral substance of burglarizing a home is greater than burglarizing a yard because the trespass violates a greater expectation of privacy and there is less of an element of temptation if something is not clearly visible. Okay… now, what’s the moral substance of attacking a hospital? That you are attacking something where innocent people gather, and where children feel safe in visiting to heal, and where vulnerable people are located. The moral substance doesn’t have to do with crumbing a wall or destroying equipment. As such, you don’t get to reduce the moral magnitude of attacking a hospital because it only took out vulnerable women and children who thought they were safe and who were looking to be healed, and didn’t cause damage to the equipment and facilities. (Hell, if we were concerned about equipment, we should ask how many hospitals worth of equipment have been kept from Palestinians due to the Israeli blockade. A separate matter, of course.)
That photo is frankly stupid. It doesn’t include the full grounds of the courtyard and ignores that many children (who are smaller) were sleeping there with their families — in war time. They’re not Scandinavians waiting for a bus stop.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
None of what you provided is close to evidence of any of your claims.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link