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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   28066 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 6, 2023

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The guy who hit him should get 2 years. It was improbable his actions would lead to death but he did commit assault and it resulted in death.

Looks like a simple case here.

It does in many ways remind me of Floyd who at most Chauvin should have gotten 2 years for doing his legally authorized job with bad technique resulting in a death.

Nonsense. Punching somebody in the head is attempted murder. Them actually dying makes it 2nd degree murder, minimum.

Truish. But I’ve seen many fist fights. Not every day do people die. I would still call it a low probability.

I think people should be punished on what they do and not what occurs. Firing a bullet into someone has a much higher chance of death like 30% plus. Punching a guy probably sub 1%.

Attempted murder in CA requires the intent to kill. The vast majority of people who punch others in the face do not intend to kill.

Murder does not require the intent to kill, but even someone who forms the intent to kill during an altercation is often guilty only of voluntary manslaughter.

But most accidental deaths resulting from a simple assault are involuntary manslaughter.

The guy who hit him should get 2 years.

Why 2 years and not 3 to 11? Seems to me that even if we extend maximal charity to the guy with the bull horn, this is about as textbook a case of "Voluntary Manslaughter" as one could ask for.

In the context of an altercation, voluntary manslaughter in CA requires that the defendant have the mental state required for murder.

Maximal charity to the guy results in involuntary manslaughter, rather than voluntary manslaughter.

In the context of an altercation, voluntary manslaughter in CA requires that the defendant have the mental state required for murder.

INAL but no I'm pretty sure it isn't. Homicide is covered under section 500 of the California Criminal Code with sections 570 - 572 covering Voluntary Manslaughter. "The mental state required for murder" is not required. It is instead cited as the qualifying distinction between manslaughter and murder. Per Official CA Jury Guidelines the key components of Voluntary Manslaughter are that "The defendant committed an act that caused the death of another person." and that "(He/She) deliberately acted with conscious disregard for human life".

Accidentally killing someone in a fight is quite literally a textbook example of voluntary manslaughter.

Homicide is covered under section 500 of the California Criminal Code

FYI, that link is to the CA Criminal Jury Instructions; the relevant CA Penal Codes sections are here

"The mental state required for murder" is not required

The reason I say that is the mental state required for murder is indeed required is that the jury instruction for involuntary manslaughter based on heat of passion/ sudden quarrel where murder is also charged says: "A killing that would otherwise be murder is reduced to voluntary manslaughter if the defendant killed someone because of a sudden quarrel or in the heat of passion." Moreover, your reference to the components of voluntary manslaughter are incomplete; where murder is not charged, the jury is instructed:

To prove that the defendant is guilty of voluntary manslaughter, the People must prove that:

  1. The defendant committed an act that caused the death of another person;[AND]
  2. When the defendant acted, (he/she) unlawfully intended to kill someone(;/.) <Give element 3 when instructing on self-defense or defense of another. [AND3. (He/She) killed without lawful excuse or justification.]

Or the People must prove that:

  1. The defendant intentionally committed an act that caused the death of another person;
  2. The natural consequences of the act were dangerous to human life;
  3. At the time (he/she) acted, (he/she) knew the act was dangerous tohuman life; [AND]
  4. (He/She) deliberately acted with conscious disregard for humanlife (;/.)<Give element 5 when instructing on self-defense or defense of another.> [AND5. (He/She) killed without lawful excuse or justification.]

Those elements re mental state are identical to the mental state required for murder, i.e., malice aforethought:

There are two kinds of malice aforethought, express malice and implied malice. Proof of either is sufficient to establish the state of mind required for murder.

The defendant had express malice if (he/she) unlawfully intended to kill.

The defendant had implied malice if:

  1. (He/She) intentionally (committed the act/[or] failed to act);
  2. The natural and probable consequences of the (act/[or] failure toact) were dangerous to human life;
  3. At the time (he/she) (acted/[or] failed to act), (he/she) knew (his/her) (act/[or] failure to act) was dangerous to human life;AND
  4. (He/She) deliberately (acted/[or] failed to act) with conscious disregard for (human/ [or] fetal) life.

So, when you correctly note that one who kills during a fight and "(He/She) deliberately acted with conscious disregard for human life" is guilty of voluntary manslaughter, you are noting that the mental state is the same as for murder.

A defendant who kills accidentally in a fight, but does not act with intent to kill or reckless disregard for human life is guilty of involuntary manslaughter:

When a person commits an unlawful killing but does not intend to kill and does not act with conscious disregard for human life, then the crime is involuntary manslaughter.

The difference between other homicide offenses and involuntary manslaughter depends on whether the person was aware of the risk to life that his or her actions created and consciously disregarded that risk. An unlawful killing caused by a willful act done with full knowledge and awareness that the person is endangering the life of another, and done in conscious disregard of that risk, is voluntary manslaughter or murder. An unlawful killing resulting from a willful act committed without intent to kill and without conscious disregard of the risk to human life is involuntary manslaughter.

Edit: To clarify, if you and I are fighting and I get so pissed that I try to kill you (and do). or do something so dangerous that I have acted in disregard for human life, that is voluntary manslaughter. But if I merely hit you in a normal fashion without intent to kill nor in a way that indicates disregard for human life and you fall and die, that is involuntary manslaughter.

Was not doing lawyerly stuff and looking up sentencing guidelines.

I’ve seen things way worse get far less like DUI deaths getting out in a year.

Throwing one punch just doesn’t seem as complicit in someone’s death than driving drunk which is an event that should have been anticipated as a reasonable probability of death.

Henry Ruggs got 3-10 years which I would use as a behavior highly likely to result in death of someone. Driving 140 shitfaced.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38162272/ex-raiders-wr-henry-ruggs-iii-sentenced-3-10-years-fatal-dui

Also when I said 2 years I meant 2 years time served which would be inline with a 3 year sentence. If you think a little higher I got no big beef but 2 felt ballpark right to me (for actual days served).

Yes, it's reasonably possible for a punch to kill someone if it caused them to fall and hit their head.

Chauvin should get less time. Technique was current per MPD manual, also Floyd was resisting, at the beginning if not the end.

That’s how I would have voted on a jury but I think a reasonable argument can be made he was negligent and should have done better perhaps at a criminal level.

That seems to be the argument that carried the day, if you believe the verdict was based in reason.

I don't find the argument reasonable.

The argument that carried the day was a full lynch mob he’s a racists cracker who deserves life.

Not a reasonable argument.

Being negligent at work would have been 2 years. He got a lot more and I believe there were racial civil rights or hate crime add-ons.

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