site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 4, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

5
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

The SEC has proposed a new type of company, a Natural Asset Company (NAC.) As the main proponents, Intrinsic Exchange Group, state:

By taking a NAC public through an IPO, the market transaction will succeed in converting the long-understood – but to-date unpriced – value of nature into financial capital. This monetization event will generate the funding needed to manage, restore, and grow healthy ecosystems around the world and bring us closer to achieving a truly sustainable, circular economy.

While there are also criterion for farmland and mixed use lands to qualify, it sounds like they expect the public to buy shares of land to pay the owners to not develop it in certain ways. I'm not sure how popular this idea will become. Carbon credits are a thing so there might be some buy-in from the public.

Margaret Byfield at Real Clear Markets takes a dimmer view of NACs:

The best comparison would be using the air we breathe as a cryptocurrency of sorts. And, these natural assets that collectively belong to all of us would now belong to corporations run by what many would call environmental special interests.

Based on just this first sentence, I'm not sure she knows what a cryptocurrency is. Maybe she means it will be subject to a speculative bubble. However, the consequence that most concerns her is that other countries could own stakes in our Natural Parks:

Another feature of these new companies is that the land belonging to sovereign nations and private landowners alike can be subject to the control of NACs. Sovereign nations, such as the United States Government, can provide their lands to private investors, including those outside the United States. China, for example, may be able to invest in an NAC and effectively be a stakeholder in our national parks. Russia could assume control of lands currently leased to produce oil and place them off limits for future natural resource development.

Both supporters and critics seem to think that an NAC will be big deal. The IEG believes that, "The financing gap for biodiversity is estimated between US$598-824 billion per year, for climate change about US$5 trillion dollars per year, and for the transition to a more sustainable, resilient, and equitable economy, orders of magnitude larger."

But I have a hard time conceptualizing how a NAC will tap into all that wealth and power. What is the expected impact for the average Joe and for international politics? Will I no longer be able to "breathe the free air," as real life starts to resemble the Lorax movie? Will foreign countries strategically buy land and prevent Americans from accessing resources?

I think Conservation Easements are worth examining in the context of this announcement.

For the unfamiliar, a conservation easement is an agreement where a landowner sells/donates the development rights of their land, and the receiving organization promises to never develop it and to prevent anyone else from developing it either.

Instead of trying to get capitalists involved in common goods, it sticks with charity.

Instead of trying to get capitalists involved in common goods, it sticks with charity.

And thus it'll never work as well as making people do "good" for more selfish reasons like financial gain. Even the Effective Altruists don't outspend the cosmetics industry.

If there's a latent demand for nature/environmentalism/conservation, and a mechanism for making people who care about them willing to pay instead of using legislative means to strong-arm those who don't, and vice versa, you'll have the more hard-nosed simply buy up empty land because they can make money off being paid not to exercise their right to do other things with it.

If someone wants to prevent me from turning my grassy knolls into a parking lot, they'd better pay me more than I'd get by doing so, or at least the same amount.

I have far more confidence in rational self-interest than in expecting people to "do the right thing" for its own sake when it costs them. I know which one works better at scale.

Not that I'm against Conservative Easements, it's a mutually positive sum trade, or at least I'd hope so. Doesn't mean there aren't benefits to expanding on it and streamlining things.

I don't see how it would receive funding other than "expecting people to 'do the right thing' for its own sake".

In a normal company, the flow of money goes:

  1. Investors invest
  2. Customers buy things
  3. The investors receive a fraction of the customers' money (aka Profit!)

In a NAC (as far as I can tell), it goes:

  1. Investors invest
  2. ???
  3. Profit!

Even their summary is just:

Listed NACs can convert the long-understood – but to-date unpriced – value of nature into equity capital which can generate the financial capital needed to manage, protect, and restore healthy ecosystems over the long term.

Skimming through the linked PDF, it appears that step 2a) is "write down a number" and 2b) is "write down a bigger number" (they're even putting a dollar sign in front of the big numbers!). The only two ideas I have for 2c) are to take a charitable purchase and print an Impact Certificate (or similar), or else to build a pyramid scheme and resell it to another investor.

I don't see how it would receive funding other than "expecting people to 'do the right thing' for its own sake".

Doesn't matter so much whether or not it's the "right thing" as much as whether it's something people will pay for.

To the extent that many/most people value environmental protection or nature, for whatever reason, those two can be aligned.

I don't have a strong opinion on whether NACs have any value outside of being a speculative asset, I'm making a more general point about getting people to buy out others who would do something they didn't prefer they do, with the additional considerations of more universal externalities.