site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 11, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Maybe America could do with a general taboo against the display of all flags except the US flag?

I recall the debate over Tlalib's Palestinian flag (and comparisons to a Congressman showing up in his IDF uniform) and it all seems like a - somewhat distasteful - hassle.

Agreed. Why is an American teacher flying a foreign flag?

I could understand a Japanese flag in Japanese language class or something. But just flying a foreign flag in some unrelated class is jivey at best.

As a non-American, I find the idea of flags in a classroom very odd. I presume you need the national flag for the pledge of allegiance (another odd custom) but why permit other flags?

Although from what I see online, American teachers have their own classroom(?) instead of it being the room for a specific year(?) and so they get to decorate it like it's their own personal space(?) - at least that's what I've picked up from online bragging about putting up Pride material and trans flags and all the rest of it.

Again, very odd from my viewpoint - schools over here (to the best of my knowledge) wouldn't permit such things, though I have no idea what they do nowadays when it comes to 'Pride Month' - they probably do have the rainbow stuff in order to "support our LGBT+ students". But that's the school as a whole, not a teacher deciding to bring in their toys and hobbies to plaster all over the walls.

Although from what I see online, American teachers have their own classroom(?) instead of it being the room for a specific year(?) and so they get to decorate it like it's their own personal space(?) - at least that's what I've picked up from online bragging about putting up Pride material and trans flags and all the rest of it.

American teachers have their own classroom, yes, and tend to decorate them with things they like about the subject in question- eg English teachers have shelves with books they have enjoyed reading, foreign language teachers have maps of places that speak the language they have visited, etc. When I was in school it was still acceptable to oppose homosexuality, so no comment on how many pride flags are floating around these days.

teachers have their own classroom(?) instead of it being the room for a specific year(?) and so they get to decorate it like it's their own personal space(?)

Yes to all of these for my American public school experience. But usually the decorations are related to the coursework. Maps, Spanish verb conjugation charts, etc. It wasn't typically their personal stuff unrelated to schooling. There was an occasional Garfield poster or something. But no one was flying foreign flags or anything.

American teachers have their own classroom(?) instead of it being the room for a specific year(?)

American teachers generally have their own rooms, but they are assigned each year. Though in practice usually it is the same room every year, unless something changes.

and so they get to decorate it like it's their own personal space(?)

They can decorate it as they wish, unless a rule prohibits certain types of items. Most districts require even-handed treatment of controversial issues, so the Israeli flag probably was not kosher, no pun intended.

not a teacher deciding to bring in their toys and hobbies to plaster all over the walls.

What is wrong with that? All else being equal, a teacher who is seen by students as an individual human being, rather than as a bureaucrat, will likely be more effective on many dimensions.

All else being equal, a teacher who is seen by students as an individual human being, rather than as a bureaucrat, will likely be more effective on many dimensions.

This is a popular narrative that people in education, especially teachers, like to push (at least from my experience as a student), and as a result, plenty of former-students (i.e. almost everyone in the West) also seem to believe it, but I'm skeptical. Have we ever done any studies measuring stuff like "how much does a teacher bringing their hobbies into the classroom affects how much students see them as an individual versus a bureaucrat?" or "how does the students' perception of the teacher as an individual versus a bureaucrat affect the effectiveness of the teacher in [important dimensions], whether it be positive or negative, and how much?" or "if a teacher bringing their hobbies into the classroom and that does increase how much students see them as individuals, then does that particular method of increasing how they see the teachers as individuals cause an increase in effectiveness of the teacher in [important dimensions]?"

Given how convenient this narrative is for the teachers who tend to push it - how nice it is that bringing things I like into my workplace also makes me better at my work! - I think there should be a pretty high bar of evidence for this, to rise above the default presumption that it's a narrative that's just too convenient not to believe.

I think there should be a pretty high bar of evidence for this,

Why, if it does no harm? If a teacher has a pennant of his favorite sports team, or a picture of his family, etc. etc, what possible harm could that do? Shouldn't the burden of proof be on those who seek to bar such displays?

Why, if it does no harm?

The harm is the complexity of creating a policy that allows innocuous things but does not permit obnoxious or offensive things. The bureaucratic burden of having to decide that, say, posting pictures of a ski trip is fine, but posting pictures of a religious retreat is not, pictures of political protesting, or posting pictures of a gay wedding reception - it's all just so tiresome. It's a given that there are people who constantly push the limits of any policy in an obnoxious way, so it's entirely reasonable to set a simple bright-line rule that veers widely on the side of inoffensiveness.

And yet somehow thousands of schools manage to negotiate that ostensible labyrinth with little trouble.

Presumably those schools have fewer people trying to push the limits of the policy.

You can't assume that teachers are going to follow these policies in good faith, which is why we can't have nice things.

More comments

I'm not talking about policy. Merely believing whether or not that the narrative is true. I agree, it's one of those things, like food that FDA categorizes as Generally Recognized As Safe, that we have enough anecdotal evidence that they're not harmful that we don't have to prove it more rigorously. But the narrative isn't about harm.

I'm not talking about policy.

But OP was.

What is wrong with that? All else being equal, a teacher who is seen by students as an individual human being, rather than as a bureaucrat, will likely be more effective on many dimensions.

Because your teacher is not your pal or your buddy, and why should you have to pretend to be interested in their skiing trips or collection of Funkopops? They are there to teach you, you are there to learn (we hope) and you don't have to know all about their home and personal life outside of school to do that.

Regarding them as a human being is no harm, but I think it's just as likely students will think that stuff is lame or boring, or that the teacher is trying to impose it on them, as it is to make them go "Wow Mx. Futterperson is a real genuine human just like me, not a robot!"

If the classroom is all decked out like Mx. Futterperson's living room, then the teacher has no right to be surprised when the kids treat it like a living room in their home, and play on their phones/get up and walk around/talk to each other/don't pay attention.

why should you have to pretend to be interested in their skiing trips or collection of Funkopops?

Who said anything about anyone having to pretend to be interested?

I think it's just as likely students will think that stuff is lame

Which is of course the default attitude of students towards teachers. which is absolutely fine. It isn't about trying to prove to the students that the teacher is "cool." It is trying to show that he is not a mere functionary.

then the teacher has no right to be surprised when the kids treat it like a living room in their home, and play on their phones/get up and walk around/talk to each other/don't pay attention.

  1. There is a big difference between having some personal items and "being decked out like a living room."
  2. And you have evidence that that is the case? Because in my experience, the opposite it true.

Who said anything about anyone having to pretend to be interested?

You think the average 14-15 year old really would be interested in boring old Teacher's holiday on the slopes? Even if they are themselves interested in the topic?

I could, at a stretch, imagine 12 year olds listening to Mx. Futterperson telling them all about their ski trip, or maybe 18 year olds when they're old enough to go on ski trips of their own, but in the interval?

Well, perhaps you know more Cool Teachers or well-behaved kids than I do! 😁

Again, who said anything about students being interested? Or about the teachers telling stories of their ski trip? We are talking only about classrooom decorations.

And, we also are not talking about "cool teachers."

Growing up in the UK in the 1980's, you normally saw national flags in schools in two situations - classrooms usually used for foreign language lessons, and displays of large numbers of small flags (either because you were in a geography classroom or because some piece of silly internationalism was being celebrated). Schools were technically government buildings, so a school that had a flagpole would fly the Union Flag on the 10-15 days a year when flags were supposed to be flown from government buildings.

As a parent of school-age kids in the Current Year, the two standard use cases are still common. Actual cloth Union Flags still seem rare, but schools in immigrant-heavy areas are expected to teach "British values" which in practice means that there is usually a wall display of kid-coloured paper Union Flags up somewhere in the school. I don't know if this happens in outer-suburban whiteopia. The other thing that changed is that since the 2012 Diamond Jubilee, low-key celebration of royal occasions somehow stopped being cringe. So my son's school was all done up with red, white and blue bunting for the 2022 Platinum Jubilee and the 2023 Coronation.

There was a large Pride flag in the visitors' entrance lobby during Pride Month, but my impression was that Pride was otherwise low-key in the way you would expect at a school where muslims and west African evangelicals together make up almost half of the parents.

because some piece of silly internationalism was being celebrated

Yeah, that's where I usually saw other flags. We didn't even have the national flag in school in my time, or in the school I worked in. But it's been about fifteen years since then, so I don't know if they put up Pride flags or what have you. I'd be surprised, but not shocked to learn they did so.

I think because over here the classrooms are "this is the Fifth Year classroom" and teachers for the different subjects move around between the year rooms, rather than having one room of their own that the classes move around (apart from things like home economics room, science lab, metal and woodwork rooms, art room, gym) then there isn't the same kind of individualisation where a teacher could stick up the Israeli or other flag. And so there isn't the same sense of ownership, of "this is my room and I can customise it whatever way I like". If you are not making your classroom an extension of your personality, I think maybe the same motivation isn't present.

But that's separate from Jewish teacher losing his mind over Muslim student questioning having the Israeli flag in the classroom, which is the hot button topic right now. Although again, if the kids are being taught all up through school about being minorities and being offended and that offensive materials should be taken down and the only response the authorities should make is agreement, is it any surprise a kid piped up about "that offends me"? Threatening to cut her head off is too extreme a response, though, and the guy definitely crossed the line by following them through the hall, yelling and swearing. Any teacher is going to get into trouble for yelling and cursing in the school hallway:

A Georgia middle school teacher was arrested last week after multiple witnesses told authorities he threatened to behead a 13-year-old Muslim student who said the Israeli flag hanging in his classroom offended her.

Benjamin Reese, a 51-year-old seventh grade teacher at Warner Robins Middle School, was arrested on charges of making terroristic threats and cruelty to children in the third degree, according to an incident report from the Houston County Sheriff’s Office, which lists more than 20 witnesses.

...The incident report – written by a sheriff’s deputy who was on duty at the school when the incident occurred – cites several witnesses who said they heard Reese shouting profane threats at three female students in the seventh-grade hallway on December 7, including, “You motherfing piece of st! I’ll kick your a! I should cut your motherfing head off!”

Another teacher, who was tutoring students in the next classroom, reported hearing Reese call one of the three students “my antisemitic friend.” The teacher said the students began walking down the hall and Reese started yelling that they disrespected “his flag” and were ignorant, according to the incident report.

Reese began walking back to his classroom, the teacher added, when she says she heard him yelling, “She is a stupid motherf***er, and I will drag her by the back of my car and cut her f***ing head off for disrespecting my Jewish flag,” the report stated.

A separate adult witness reported to the deputy she heard Reese yell at the student, “You don’t make an antisemitic comment like that to a Jew,” and later shouting in the hallway that he would “slit her f***ing throat” when talking about the students. That teacher said Reese was yelling loudly and cursing down the hallway back into his classroom.

Maybe America could do with a general taboo against the display of all flags except the US flag?

The one that was funniest to me on this front was being in Ireland and North Ireland shortly after the start of the Ukraine War. Due to the history of hostilities, there are generally not very many flags flown in Belfast. Either the Union Jack or Irish flag could be a point of incitement. The blue and yellow though? Plenty of those!

Flags and Emblems Act. True that there has been a lot of bother over flegs.

I am assuming you were in the City Centre which is indeed somewhat neutral territory for British/Irish flags for exactly the reason you state. But go a l little beyond that in Belfast and you will quite easily know which side you are on based upon the flags flying and which colours the kerbs are painted. And Israeli/Palestinian flags as well.

There is a reason why I joke that living in Northern Ireland is good preparation for moving to the US as a Brit. Flags almost everywhere, armed police on the streets and much more religious than the average Brit would be used to.

There is a reason why I joke that living in Northern Ireland is good preparation for moving to the US as a Brit. Flags almost everywhere, armed police on the streets and much more religious than the average Brit would be used to.

Also everything’s fried. Probably not a coincidence that one of if not the biggest ethnic group in the US white population is literally from Northern Ireland.

Correct assumption. Sadly, I was pretty sick and wound up not exploring the city as much as I would have liked. Normally, I would have gotten in a nice long run and seen quite a bit on foot, but wound up confined to a smaller area than usual (except for when we drove North for a daytrip). It was still enough to finally get some visceral understanding of what the deal is with Northern Ireland being British, which I previously understood intellectually, but was always puzzled by.