This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
On Credit Scores
I stumbled across this voxplainer on pocket: https://www.vox.com/videos/2023/12/14/24000469/what-does-credit-score-mean, and it reminded me of the Biden admin rule increasing the fees on mortgages to borrowers with good credit(https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/3978409-why-is-the-biden-administration-punishing-financially-responsible-homeowners/), and I think that at the time the justification was some kind of racial justice angle. And that in turn led me to think "golly willikers, people are going to start fighting each other over credit scores, might as well get ahead of it on the motte". (If you're not familiar with how credit scores work for some reason, here's an advertisement for a credit scoring company that explains pretty well: https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/credit-education/score-basics/understanding-credit-scores/).
Well not really, I'm not a 50's comic book character. But it seems odd in retrospect that we didn't have a motte discussion in April/May about the change in fee structure, and it seems like there is or is about to be a woke push to try to adjust credit scoring for equity reasons, and this is the kind of boring economic mismanagement that can really jack up the economy if it happens. Now most of the things vox suggests are anodyne if probably stupid and mildly negative, but it's easy to see a jump to government rules getting a whole lot stupider and more destructive; the whole sector is very heavily regulated.
Now a personal story- when I was much younger, I needed to buy a car because the beatermobile I had was broken down and I lived too far from work to walk(and in Tarrant county, there is no public transportation to speak of), and I decided I might as well buy something good that would last a while, even if I had to borrow for it, in lieu of buying another craigslist beatermobile that I'd have to replace in a year or two. I found a good gently used truck online, it was a good deal... and I got denied financing because of lack of credit history. But, my dad put it in his name and told me to get a credit card with a major bank and pay off the full amount on autopay so we didn't have to do that again. I'm still driving that truck and haven't had to spend any money on repairs in five years except new tires(because there was something in the road) and a battery(which was cheap), and I have good credit and don't need my parents to cosign loans. But I can easily imagine if I'd been estranged, didn't know who my dad was, just had parents who were financially illiterate/had bad credit(but I repeat), whatever. I would have had to buy a beatermobile, spend as much on mechanical repairs as I did on buying it, and then buy another beatermobile and do the same thing. And I wouldn't have been able to buy a house; I'd have been stuck in flophouses or the kind of apartments that don't bother to have an English language application because it's all illegal immigrants. So I can kind of see vox's point- there really are people with generational advantages(I'm one of them), although I don't think most of it is an aftereffect of 50s racism(it's mostly just lack of impulse control) some people get the short end of the stick. Most of them would probably still be behind if we had a level playing field, sure, but we don't- something as simple as "your parents can give good advice" is a major advantage, and it correlates with being the sort of person who would figure out how to have a good credit score anyways, but it's not a perfect correlation.
And for a lot of reasons, people who lack those major advantages are disproportionately black, and this isn't fixable. I happen to hold the belief that we shouldn't try very hard because of omelets, eggs, and the history of ideologically-driven progressive interventions in the economy. Current credit scoring is probably about as fair as can reasonably be expected(which is not perfectly fair). Adding financial literacy classes to high school curricula might be good, but let's be real, the kids who need the instruction aren't learning anyways. I don't think there's much to be done about it, and credit scoring formulae do what they're intended to do, which is accurately reflect creditworthiness.
However, it does not seem to me like people holding the opposite view are obviously delusional the same way as progressive attitudes towards crime are. Some people, through no fault of their own, are bad credit risks, and there really are things that don't get reported to credit agencies which probably should so some people who are good credit risks lack sufficient history for a credit score. And so we can probably expect the "we should do something to make credit scores more equitable" idea to survive the backlash against woke. Vox mentioned multiple states banning the use of credit scores in making insurance decisions; I don't support this, but it's perfectly understandable to me that some people would even if I disagree with them. It seems like this is an underrated aspect of wokeness which will probably survive and where the woke have the potential to do real damage. The Biden admin rule above I don't expect to have good results, but it also seems like something with a pretty minor impact, but which is also the tip of the iceberg. Which raises the question: what else might a woke federal government do to try to hamfistedly improve "equity" in this area?
There’s also the option of not needing specifically credit history to get a loan or further credit, if you have other financial info available. For example, in Israel you can get a loan from your bank based on your salary income, which is known to your bank anyway.
What are personal bankruptcy laws like in Israel?
A lot of non-US folks express surprise at US credit systems but when I look into their banking laws personal bankruptcy is extremely difficult to qualify for, it's very easy in the US to have all your personal debts discharged.
I honestly don’t know enough about either sets of laws to draw any meaningful comparisons.
More options
Context Copy link
Used to be before bankruptcy act reform. Now unless you have no assets and no job they force you into "voluntary reorganization" (debt slavery).
Can you tell me more about this? Googling it just brings up links to legalese on government websites.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bapcpa.asp
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link