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PaperclipPerfector  4mo ago (text post)   24656 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 25, 2023

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I've read most of the replies and I wonder if it doesn't boil down to unwillingness to entertain anything short of a perfect case. If a vegan can't provide a watertight case for how turning vegan will generate ideal outcomes on all aspects under consideration then their argument is irredeemably flawed, and if their argument is flawed it can be rejected wholesale and we can all carry on as we were. And of course The Motte is a filter for people who live to pick holes in arguments (cue "no we're not!").

What if vegans could show some net benefits at below net cost to you? Would you/we recalibrate not to eating a fully vegan diet, but simply eating less meat? Or does it have to be the once-and-for-all slam dunk that settles the matter for ever?

What if vegans could show some net benefits at below net cost to you? Would you/we recalibrate not to eating a fully vegan diet, but simply eating less meat? Or does it have to be the once-and-for-all slam dunk that settles the matter for ever?

I'd be glad to consider such an argument, fairly presented and rationally argued. I would even go further and say I'm interested in them.

Every once in a while I get the thought that factory farming seems pretty horrible. Then I go to vegan sites to see what I can learn, I'm confronted with emotional appeals and social games, and I decide that they suck and I'm going to get a cheeseburger, because fuck them.

My initial intellectual itch never gets satisfied.

What if vegans could show some net benefits at below net cost to you?

Are those net benefits to me or anyone I care about? Or are they to some brainless birds that will never know nor care that I made that sacrifice?

Vegans claim great health benefits to their diet. And I remember a vegan I knew claiming eating meat really hurts your body: makes your dick not work, etc.

So they'd say "yes".

What if vegans could show some net benefits at below net cost to you? Would you/we recalibrate not to eating a fully vegan diet, but simply eating less meat

Of course, but that's contingent on actually convincing someone of the premise.

A rather large proportion of my day-to-day happiness and utility comes from eating meat and meat-containing dishes. I am willing to entertain arguments that veganism provides net benefits at below net cost, but I think the benefits would have to be incredibly good. I would probably go vegan for an extra 10 years of life, but not for an extra 5 years of life, so that's the hole you have to dig me out of.

I wouldn't even do it for an extra 5 years, if those 5 years are spent gently shitting myself and praying for death in a retirement home. If they extend the prime, great. If they extend the tail, not so great. The value of an extra 5 years in the body of a 20 year old and an extra 5 years in the body of a 90 year old are not the same.

I've read most of the replies and I wonder if it doesn't boil down to unwillingness to entertain anything short of a perfect case. If a vegan can't provide a watertight case for how turning vegan will generate ideal outcomes on all aspects under consideration then their argument is irredeemably flawed, and if their argument is flawed it can be rejected wholesale and we can all carry on as we were.

Maybe, but I don't think that applies to the specific case @satirizedoor brought up. The poster in that case wasn't interested in advancing arguments for veganism, he was interested in shaming others for not being vegan. Of course people aren't going to respond to that. Once he condescendingly asked "what's your excuse?", there was no argument any more, just good old-fashioned "I'm better than you, suck it".

On the other hand, I don't think it's possible for a vegan to argue that you and everyone you know is doing unspeakable evil without it coming across as shaming.

There are degrees. There's a big gap between "hey man, I realize you enjoy meat but it's actually morally wrong because (reasons)", and the confrontational message from the post under discussion.

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