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PaperclipPerfector  2mo ago (text post)   28289 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 4, 2024

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Christianity is pretty disordered itself. So I am not sure Christianity really has much of the moral high ground here. Even setting aside the truth value of the existence of God. Why else are there 85 different sects which have had (and still do have) their own violent confrontations?

Which exact Christian sect is going to be at the head of this Christian nationalism? I suspect there will be some pretty big push back coming from inside its own house. Are you really wanting to bring back Catholic vs Protestant as a live issue?

Being from Northern Ireland, I can tell you, that might not go as well as you would like.

Why else are there 85 different sects

To get to the schism of 1054 we really need to go back at least to the Photian Schism in 863...

Christianity doesn't claim that its followers are paragons of virtue who can do no wrong. In fact, it claims the opposite.

That will i am sure be of comfort to the various victims of sectarian violence on both sides.

And if your argument was "Christianity can't provide comfort to the victims of sectarian violence", that would be a valid point. But your argument instead was "Christianity is disordered because its adherents sometimes commit sectarian violence", so your point is rather off the mark.

No my point was Christianity is disordered because it has and continues to schism. The fact those schisms sometimes trigger sectarian violence is worse, but the schisms and the bad blood they bring is disordered in and of itself.

Subsets are not necessarily disordered of course but a religion where huge groups fundamentally cannot agree on what is even required to be in God's grace, or where one subset thinks the leader of another subset is actually the anti-Christ cannot overall be described as ordered in my view.

Why else are there 85 different sects which have had (and still do have) their own violent confrontations?

Why do you assume violence is immoral?

You think violent terrorism between Catholics and Protestants who both ostensibly worship the same God, and have the same holy book is moral? I'm pretty sure that God is not very convinced murdering children is moral.

You don't believe in God and my question should be very simple to answer.

I don't believe in God either and my answer would be:

I would very much rather not get murdered, nor any of my loved ones or people I respect get murdered. I generally would like to live in a society with as little murder as possible, trading off with other considerations (e.g. the cost of law enforcement). This would also favor various things I vaue in addition to not-dying. I can also expect most people in my society to have similar preferences, but inolving different sets of individuals; it is fairly easy to collectively agree on a policy of "no murder", but not on one of "no murder of people orca-covenant likes". Every exception I carve out for myself, other people can carve for themselves. (Since people may have different preferences, the general principle is actually a policy of respecting people's preferences as much as possible, with not-being-murdered as an especially strong and stable example.)

In accordance with utilitarianism-but-not-the-dumbest-type, I also oppose murder in edge cases where it lead to short-term benefits, except in ultra-edge cases where 1) it has disproportionately large benefits (e.g. kill Hitler to end the Holocaust), 2) it's not possible to achieve the same benefits without murder, and 3) both 1) and 2) can be known with a very high degree of confidence, taking into account how often people are wrong about them (so, in practice, basically never).

Because murdering people is wrong, and its especially wrong over a minor doctrinal difference.

Why do you believe that "murdering people is wrong" eviscerates Christianity?

I don't. I am saying that because Christianity has multiple different sects which in some cases believe the adherents of basically the same religion are variously blasphemers, followers of the anti-Christ and not true Christians, and this tendency does sometimes lead to violence and strife that Christianity taken as a whole is a fractured religion and therefore when talking about Christian Nationalism taking over in the US that which sect takes over is not going to be wholly supported by all Christians.

This has nothing to do with whether one of those branches is actually correct. Catholicism could be the one true way to God and it will still be true that creating a specifically Catholic Nationalism in the US is may well lead to strife within the Christian larger community.

I don't think that eviscerates Christianity though. I think the Sunni and Shia conflict within Islam shows this is not specifically a Christian problem. If we were discussing an Islamic Nationalist project it would likely be even worse.

For some reason this comment strikes me as much more reasonable than your earlier comment, even though as I read them both back-to-back I find they're perfectly compatible. Go figure -- chalk it up to some difference between us over some intonation or phrase.

I agree that "Christian Nationalism" is basically a non-starter as a political formula to govern the United States; although, granted the caveat about "Which Christianity?," I think it's at least worth respecting as a serious position.

Fair, communicating over text can lead to tonal or other types of miscommunication very easily.

I am an atheist from Northern Ireland, so obviously my set of my experiences with Christianity (particularly where both Protestantism and Catholicism are deeply embedded into 2 co-existing communities and has blended with a nationalist ethos in each). The US experience is different, but I think overlooking that a sectarian peace does hold perhaps because of the fact we don't have to decide which has supremacy in a more secular state might be a problem.

I think it is a serious position, though not one I would support. Having said that assuming you avoided the sectarian strife part, it wouldn't be the end of the world.

In practice, Catholics don’t have the numbers and Protestants don’t have the organization, so a Christian theocracy in the US of necessity has to be generic.

It might start out that way, but there is a deep underlying division that lies quiescent due to the idea that the state should not favour one church over another. The resurgence of true belief a Christian theocracy would require seems unlikely to come to the same point.

Possibly you could arrange some kind of power-sharing as per the current in Northern Ireland, where the legislative bodies and executive must be divided equally, but that is very shaky and requires in NI, the pressure form a higher legal power (Westminster) to enforce the rules and even then we went 2 years or more without it actually sitting.

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The question was why do you think it is immoral?

Because i do. Murdering people is wrong especially over minor differences in religion.

Also i'd rather not have my birthplaces culture war reignited over here for more pragmatic reasons.

"Murder" is not the same think as "killing" though, and what makes you think the differences are minor.

To echo my comments in an earlier thread, as trivial as the difference between Sunni and Shia may seem to a non-Muslim, Protestant and Catholic may seem to a non-Christian, or Stalin and Trotsky may seem to a non-leftistist that doesn't make them less real or less prone to real violence.

Right, thats my point. And I was raised Christian in Northern Ireland. I waa making the point that Christian Nationalism risks violence between Christian groups because they are not a monolith remember.

I would argue though in the grand scheme of things the differences are minor (which is not the same as unimportant to be clear!). The same God, the same Holy book, the same commandments, the same belief that Jesus died for our sins and so on.

Because i do.

Are you saying this in the vibes-based sense, or is there another reason?

I'd say that, as I am not a utilitarian, my moral intuitions are based upon my upbringing, my experiences, the social forces brought to bear upon me and are largely immune to rational change. I can't think myself into believing murder is moral.

Though I might try to reason myself into the position that I had to murder Bob Smith for the greater good (He is the second coming of Hitler, he is a kid rapist etc.), if I go ahead and murder him in cold blood, I am highly likely to experience guilt. This indicates i am judging myself immoral even though I was able to rationalize why I should kill him.

I don't know if I would quite call that vibes based.

I think @ZRslashRIFLE would call it vibes-based.

I also think that it leaves you in an unfortunate spot in a couple ways. The first is that no one else has any reason to adopt your claim that "murdering people is wrong". They don't have the same upbringing, experiences, or social forces that you do, so if they happen to think that it's totally fine, evenespecially for minor differences in religion, then there's basically no point in you having made any of the statements that you have made. Their perspective is apparently fine, simple as.

The second is that you might find yourself shifting over time, even unintentionally. See the fictional Breaking Bad. Sure, maybe the first time you murder someone in cold blood (after agonizingly convincing yourself that it's for the greater good), you'll experience guilt. But the second time? A little less agony before; a little less guilt after. Infinity starts at three, and so at that point, your upbringing, experiences, and social forces will easily leave you with zero concerns about casually offing people for minor differences in religion politics video games bird watching slights in small talk.

They don't have the same upbringing, experiences, or social forces that you do, so if they happen to think that it's totally fine, evenespecially for minor differences in religion, then there's basically no point in you having made any of the statements that you have made. Their perspective is apparently fine, simple as.

Exactly right! Of course everyone (or nearly everyone) holds that their own views are moral. My near relatives who thought that murder was wrong, but that if it was a Catholic, well that is quite all right have no more objective source of morality than the IRA members who thought the opposite, and both sets were because of their experiences and values that were imparted to them by their families and communities. But just because I understand they think their beliefs are moral does not mean i have to agree they are correct. What is defined as moral is based upon what values they were inculcated with. That is why the culture war is important. I think the world would be a better place, if I can convince more people (or educate) more people into following my moral code. Someone with different beliefs will try to influence the opposite way. The fact neither of us have an objective claim to morality, matters not a shred.

And absolutely the experience of murdering someone is an experience that will contribute to someone's moral compass. As you say it could degrade their idea that murder is wrong, or it could send them into a spiral of guilt and reinforce it. If you think the first is more likely, then just like with never trying cocaine, you should try and ensure yourself and other people never take that first snort.

But the point of making the statements here is just because I like arguing on the internet. I am not under the impression I am going to change anything.

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