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WTF is going on in Korea?
Meta: I haven't posted in the CWT in a minute, Life gets in the way. This post is going to be mostly copy pasted content from elsewhere. I will attempt to consolidate some of it here. It's probably going to be a very sparse list compared to all the relevant pieces of context, but I attempt to shed some light and discuss nevertheless.
TLDR: The "Gender War" is a significant aspect of the Korean culture wars. And it seems to be more pronounced in Korea than any other society. I really want to know why. I think this bears studying given gender relations are deteriorating globally, and if Japan is 10 years ahead in neetdom, South Korea is definitely 10 years ahead in whateverthefuck dom this is. Their infamously low birthrate is also an elephant in the room, whilst we have this discussion.
Exhibit A
This culture war survey:
Page 12, We can see that Koreans most of all nationalities think there is significant tension between men and women. Koreans tend to top the charts for other questions as well, so it might just be the case that the Korean social fabric is especially frayed, or Koreans are just especially neurotic or self-critical.
However, it does seem that the social fabric is fraying like no other on multiple fronts in Korea:
Exhibit B
Just simple web searching. If something is in the air, people are probably talking about it. Or inversely, if people are taking about it, it stinks.
It does seem that the Gender War is becoming more "interesting". Not especially so in Korea however. But try the search term "reddit war $COUNTRY", and lo and behold, you actually get posts about it when you try with
COUNTY='Korea'.Some examples from the first page: https://old.reddit.com/r/Hangukin/comments/1708gpj/can_people_explain_to_me_wtf_is_going_on_with_the/, https://old.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/18cnto9/whats_going_on_with_the_gender_conflict_and_it/, https://old.reddit.com/r/korea/comments/18qlyqe/why_does_the_battle_of_sexes_seem_more_pronounced/, https://old.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/19bvpjq/whats_the_deal_with_feminism_and_antifeminism_in/, https://old.reddit.com/r/SingaporeRaw/comments/192yymo/do_you_think_singapore_will_face_a_south_korean/
Exhibit C
"The incel election" Enough said? I don't think there is much other evidence required that this is a significant CW front in Korea.
Youtube video - Gacha Drama and the Korean Gender War (You can disagree with thesis, I'm just linking to show its a thing people are picking up on)
Study - The Gender War and the Rise of Anti-family Sentiments in South Korea (You can disagree with thesis...)
Exhibited D
This is totally comprised of anecdotes, but I buy it.
Some comments from the reddit posts above: Common theme, Korean feminism dials the man-hate up to 11.
So what gives? Why did the gender war hit Korea like a truck?
Korea is already on its way to extinction, so at least this won't be a problem for that long, but still, I am really left scratching my head. Are there any historical examples of this ?
One running theory other than the normie, "It's because they work really long hours hurr durr" (which does have a massive nugget of truth to it), is that Korea is especially unfathomably status obsessed. All that exam cramming, all that plastic surgery, it's all indicative.
I point out the above because most countries the gender war is more along the lines of "incel men" vs "feminists". Men are usually the active camp complaining about not getting anything from women, women complain about not getting anything from society, men take the aggressive stance. However, in Korea women are on the offensive as well, this seems unique to me.
This whole thing is getting crazy enough that it is even leaking into NPR on my commute and I've heard several stories about it from major news outlets. They of course are spinning it as the eventual chickens coming home to roost from having men that do zero child rearing and housework and also having the women work outside the home too (which is what they wanted!). But regardless of how they got there, they have a solid point. No one is going to willingly sign up for a life of wage slavery + all domestic tasks, that is fucking crazy town. You or I wouldn't do that!!! It is no wonder women are mad and opting out. It is the only rational option.
Yet few if any are pushing for a return to the majority of women being stay at home moms without careers.
Well no of course not. Women are people too and that sucks as a life.
Objection, arguing facts not in evidence. Plenty of women still live such a life an find it extremely rewarding and fulfilling.
Well then it sucks to be the kind of person that would enjoy life as a breeding machine + house servant. Maybe some people love it, but that is pretty close to being dosed with alcohol as a fetus so you'll enjoy being a Delta in a Huxley book.
So are stay-at-home mothers mentally deficient breeding machines and house servants, like you just said they were one post prior, or did you decide during the intervening three hours that it's actually okay since they don't have to also work outside the home?
Also, can you explain what sort of virtue is conferred by... say... a job schlepping boxes at Amazon, such that it distinguishes real human women from mere broodmare house slaves? What is it you think makes schlepping so much more righteous than maintaining one's own family home? Do you think boxes are more important? Do you think Amazon appreciates it more? Please, by all means, enlighten us.
Let me see if I can talk around all the words you're putting in my mouth...
When you give women the option not to be a stay at home mom...most take it. When they have the option to have fewer children, most take it. Hence the reduction in family formation and lack of children. Revealed preferences.
Also, talk about a straw man. Yeeeaaaash.
Funny that you posted this just yesterday, "If you want I can make up an arbitrary position, ascribe it to you, give you hell for not defending it, and then conspicuously stop responding when you point out that you've literally never said such a thing."
You are channeling Hlynka!
Me:
You, one post prior:
I seriously can't believe you even tried to play the "putting words in my mouth" card. Like you realize everyone can see all these posts, right?
That's nice, but I didn't ask you about any of that, did I? No, I asked you what it is about a menial routine job like most people have that elevates a mother from a subhuman object of your personal contempt to, presumably, a real human being.
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Running a household used to be a complex operation requiring the deployment of a lot of different technical and personal skills as well as management and long-term planning. If modern labor-saving machinery and industrial techniques have obsoleted this role and made people unhappier, perhaps that might have implications for the obsoleting of further social roles and jobs via technology.
Good point! It is going to be interesting as every single human role is done better by machines. We'll be 100% obsolete. I am fine with that as I am pretty good at living a life of indolence and base enjoyment, I've never defined myself by my work. This will not be the case for many and I'm sure a lot of people will be made very upset.
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This is an interesting, arguably uncharitable take on motherhood. I think being a mom is the highest calling there is, right up there with being a dad. If one's perspective is that parenting is selfish or whatever, you know bringing a child into a life of pain, etc. at least that argument I understand. What I don't sympathize with is this idea that having kids and raising them (which yes includes cooking, washing, cleaning, folding, ironing, lather rinse repeat) is robotic mindless drudgery. I guess if your goal is sucking the marrow out of life for yourself that's probably true, but I never found that so appealing.
True enough, if only one person (the woman, and alone, without her own mother or anyone else) is doing everything in the home, that's a weird, unfair dynamic. I mean get up off the goddam couch and clean the tub, hey. That may be rather your point --not the idea of domesticity, but the inordinate burden on women to do it all and all alone.
I don't know to what degree tgis is true among modern Koreans. I'd offer anecdotes but those wouldn't shed much light I expect.
I think being a parent is cool too, but if you're expected to do all the house work, childcare and also work a job outside the home that is a terrible deal. That seems to be the expectation in Korea, so again, it is no surprise that a smart women won't sign up for that!
I think you agree that is a bad deal. If you look at the stats even here in the states women do a lot more of the childcare and housework even if they are working the same hours as men. That isn't to say I don't think men get a raw deal in a lot of ways regarding harder more physical jobs, forced military participation, etc...etc...but to claim that women were happy to be house slaves before someone learned them wrong is also disingenuous.
Is it the expectation In Korea? Certainly for hardcore traditionalists, though hardcore traditionalists wouldn't want the wife working at all. I am not convinced the current parenting age generation is so inclined, though it makes for a rich discussion to believe so.
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Ah yes, people with different preferences that aren't aligned with your politics are all malfunctioning mutants. Of course.
So you want to be a breeding house servant? Is that the kind of life you would chose for yourself? If you think it is a good one why aren't you living it? If you would like to I would be happy to employ you for child rearing in exchange food and a place to sleep! If you could also work 40 hours a week to be able to pay for my house that would be great too!
This is all mixed in with the recent population decline panic, which is another silly thing as human labor is going to be 100% obsolete inside of the next 2 decades.
Also my Huxley joke is actually hilarious and I'm upset you didn't chuckle at it. The motte is honestly far to serious most of the time. Lighten up people!
I would remind you that none of your interlocutors AFAICS are advocating that women work full-time jobs as well as do all the domestic work. They are suggesting that women be stay-at-home mums.
It's serious because jokes and sarcasm have a tendency to escalate into yelling matches. This is actually to some extent written into the rules.
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Women wanting "liberation" is a modern phenomenon, so unless the 96% of women in 1895 that were opposed to suffrage along with their ancestors for thousands of years were Huxley's Deltas it feels like you're projecting modern culture and mores onto the past.
So you want to be a house servant? Is that what I am hearing here? We don't live in the past, we live in a world of birth control and equal rights. The revealed preference is a lot less barefoot in the kitchen pregnant style living. You don't have to take my word for it. Why do you think birth rates are dropping like a stone?
Is woman wanting "liberation" a modern phenomenon or did they always want more control over their lives? If you made the mistake of educating one I mean. Mary Wollstonecraft was 1792 and she wasn't the first.
For now. The only nations to survive will be ones that give up on the failed experiment of granting women equal rights
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