domain:lesswrong.com
JarJarJedi
15m ago
No, more precisely, having no access to the benefits of US welfare state is equivalent to slavery.
Skeletor
19m ago
Okay so the two aren't actually comparable in any way that people should actually care about, or that you'll actually defend.
You have no actual equivalence to make between guys catching slaves and guys catching illegal immigrants, other than the fact that you think both are unethical, for reasons that may or may not have anything in common since you won't actually elaborate upon the comparison.
Okay bud, fair enough, good post I guess.
TeknOShEeP
27m ago
Lol, Lmao even. Why do you think ICE gets to pick their own optics? Like any federal agency, they get to wear whatever label the media slaps on them today. And the leftoid media industrial complex has decided "nazi storm troopers" is the label ICE gets to wear for the foreseeable future.
Compared to most feds, ICE seems to be undertaking an extremely difficult task, that puts them in quite a lot of personal danger, in a reasonably professional manner. That puts them in the top 5% of efficient agencies as far as I'm concerned. Lefty shitflinging will happen completely independently of how ICE is actually performing, because it mostly works at convincing the average lefty voter their country is turning into the Fourth Reich.
ulyssessword
28m ago
There are no shortage of other immoral groups it's morally obligatory to resist as well, of course.
Why didn't you choose one of those to compare to? Choosing one with an obvious parallel then ignoring it so hard you can't recognize it when prompted is an odd choice, to say the least.
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
28m ago
All things that are unethical share the trait of being unethical, as I have been consistent about. That does not entail that they share particular factual similarities, such as involving slavery. That was a leap you made.
Tiber727
32m ago
Open border, a functioning economy, a robust welfare state. Pick two, and the welfare state is functionally non-negotiable.
Ah yes, how could I forget all the wonderful government benefits that illegals most definitely qualify for. The rest is quite frankly a parody of how other people think and what motivates them.
Or that it could just be automated, and that it's insane to import tens of millions of farm workers right as we're looking at an AI/robotics era-defining revolution.
A, if they could be easily automated they already would be. B, Honestly the entire farm industry sounds like a mess to me with smaller farmers being pushed out of the market or being beholden to shitty John Deere's locked-down repair practices. I'm not as anti-AI as your average lefty, but I don't think this is coming in the next let's say 10 years and I don't think it'll be all that great when it arrives.
Skeletor
34m ago
Hey speaking of skill issues, I notice you didn't explain how the two things you compared are in any way comparable. It was all fun and games equating ICE agents to guys chasing down slaves, but the moment you were asked to justify it, you imploded into mealy-mouthed bullshit where apparently everything you find unethical in any way is equivalent to the Fugitive Slave Act.
FirmWeird
Randomly Generated Reddit Username
37m ago
I don't follow Klein enough to say definitively, but I'd say that something that explicitly disavows identity politics as having negative value both for humanity and for the Democrats, while explicitly praising enemies on the right such as Trump for helping to fight against it, in a way that shows that he believes that right-wing electoral gain is a worthy cost to pay for excising this cancer from the left-wing - even when some (or a lot) of the healthy cells around the cancer are excised - would probably meet the bar for me.
Just for the record, this is actually my personal position - though I'd actually go further. Yes, Trump destroying the flows of government money that propped up "left wing" activists might impact dems at the polling booth, but it is ultimately better for the left wing that all this propaganda is shut down. The left wing that USAID/NED/USGOV money has created and fed is choking out the birth of an actual authentic left political movement. Trump, to the extent that he is destroying the DNC and the infrastructure that keeps bloated slugs like Pelosi and Schumer well fed with donor/insider trading money, is doing actual left wing politics a service.
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
41m ago
What do you think moral legitimacy consists of? How would it be different from what I said?
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
42m ago
Equating "I don't like X" and "X is unethical" seems like a skill issue on your part. There are plenty of things I don't like that are not unethical for people to do.
daguerrean
44m ago
You are purely baiting at this point
Skeletor
45m ago
They are comparable in that the state's actions are equivalent in their lack of moral legitimacy. I thought I was pretty clear about that.
Yeah except you completely left out the part where you explain why they're, you know, comparable. You just walked out on stage and said "Slavery. There, now that I have moral legitimacy, I don't like ICE."
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
47m ago
I have plenty of complaints about the conduct of ICE but the legitimacy of their official mission seems fine? Even if you think having open borders is a moral imperative the US is clearly not set up to support flipping a switch from 0 to 100% on that without lead time.
Unless this is bait, in which case can you please not or at least choose better bait?
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
47m ago
They are out of accordance with ethical principles, of course. Do you think returning fugitive slaves was the right thing to do?
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
49m ago
They are both agents of the state, in the instant case. There are no shortage of other immoral groups it's morally obligatory to resist as well, of course.
daguerrean
50m ago
He is just playing dumb and pretending to not understand the question to avoid answering it. I’m not sure why, but I doubt repeating it will get anything more meaningful out of him.
ulyssessword
56m ago
What is the connection between ICE officers and Fugitive Slave Act enforcers, that it's appropriate to compare their moral legitimacy? Why not any other immoral group, like payday loan lenders, patent trolls, or NIMBYs?
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
58m ago
They are both doing things that are immoral. I thought I was pretty clear?
Sunshine
1hr ago
And why are those actions morally illegitimate? What is the source of moral illegitimacy in those two cases?
4doorsmorewhores
1hr ago
Pornography is a great example of my favourite question for politicians, "What is a real problem in society that you don't believe the government should do anything about?"
ulyssessword
1hr ago
...and your stated reason slave officers were immoral is because they were doing their jobs, and their jobs are bad. Drawing the parallel that you believe ICE officers are immoral because they are doing their jobs, and their jobs are bad is the most obvious reading IMO.
I can't see how you could miss that. In fact, I can't see what else it could possibly be, so I'll ask directly: What is the connection between ICE officers and Fugitive Slave Act enforcers, that it's appropriate to compare their moral legitimacy?
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
1hr ago
Yes there is???!
Step me through this, please. Evidence of this being true would require a reasonably deep look at the anti-ICE narrative, the pro-ICE narrative, and some analysis of not only why the anti-ICE narrative is closer to the truth than the pro-ICE one, but an ironclad case for why ICE is being unnecessarily cruel.
I say some reasonably unoctroversial things like "gender affirming doctors are prescribing chemical castration drugs to children" and I'm expected to provide evidence with citations, but you make your case with "yes there is???!?" and repeating "thr optics are so horrible"? Why should I accept that?
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
1hr ago
There's a million ways he could've implemented the ICE program, and he chose one with the greatest optics of cruelty.
Give me the power of mainstream media, and I can portray a "free school lunch" program as having the optics with the greatest cruelty. Like why, after everything that we discussed here overe the years, should anyone, including left-wingers, take any of these declarations seriously?
I'm not saying that ICE is picking their own optics, I'm saying that the Trump camp are framing their immigration enforcement in a "fuck the left" way.
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