domain:lesswrong.com
self_made_human
Grippy socks, grippy box
13hr ago
and a number of users here including at least one moderator.
How did it go again?
"You are allowed to ping me if you like? You know that right?".
You are, of course, at liberty to disclose which moderator you're talking about. In fact, I actively encourage it. Don't worry, we don't bite. You are very unlikely to get banned for talking shit about a mod, we actually tolerate quite a great deal. Now, I have a sneaking suspicion of who that moderator in question is, but it's always good to have clarification without jumping to a conclusion.
Please, go on. But I must note, if you strongly suspect that a post of yours will get you in trouble with the mod team, that is a good reason to not post that. You might even DM us and ask us if it looks okay.
Steve Sailer doesn't think that education has no value, only that biology is the most important factor:
Here is a summary of his extended take on the Mississipi miracle: https://www.stevesailer.net/p/naep-test-scores-mississippi-miracle-search
In general, it appears that Mississippi is making progress by being realistic about its human capital. Instead of succumbing to progressive education fads that begin by assuming that your students are self-motivated prodigies, the Mississippi Miracle is based on the assumption that its students aren’t necessarily the sharpest knives in the drawer, so they need basic education tailored to their abilities, not fantasies about self-actualization.
Also, it appears that Mississippi’s reforms tend to make teaching less creative. Teaching tends to appeal to theater kids who like doing creative stuff in front of an audience, so most schools tend to allow teachers to try out the latest fad and their various brainstorms, most of which don’t work particularly well, but at least keep the teachers hopeful and motivated.
Since 2013, however, Mississippi has been drilling teachers on “the Science of Reading,” which doesn’t sound like that much fun for teachers other than the satisfaction that these time-tested drills tend to work a little better than the latest creative breakthrough sweeping the more progressive states.
I don't accuse you of lacking charity to Sailer, I think you just haven't read what he thinks about this at all and were going off vibes. He makes basically the same limited argument you're making 'Mississippi is doing a better job of education' without the extension of 'hereditarians are wrong' which doesn't necessarily follow.
Likewise, in terms of sub-Saharan African countries, Botswana is fairly well run. But being well-run can only get you so far. The wealth comes from the mining industry rather than broader industry and development, there's a very high poverty rate. But they haven't cocked it up, which is better than can be said for Nigeria or many others. The best-run African country is still poorer per capita (and presumably much poorer in real terms, minus diamond mining wealth) than the worst-run European country (Ukraine) which is also in a major war. If Botswana was white, it would be an absolute disaster zone, most of the population are basically subsistence farmers, 1/3 of the adults have HIV, no significant manufacturing.
While Mississippi may be teaching more efficiently, what actually matters is the unadjusted scores. US White progressives can afford to indulge in dumb fads. It'll hurt to be sure, it's squandering enormous amounts of wealth and talent. But there is wealth and talent to squander. There's a higher baseline and that is the most important factor in just about any equation.
aqouta
13hr ago
Scott linked it in one of his golden era posts, who by very slow decay
self_made_human
Grippy socks, grippy box
13hr ago
(The person who wrote the script didn't know very many laws of physics. He was trying his best, okay?)
DoctorMonarch
♬We're so happy that we live in 1800's Alabama 'cause it's sunny and there is no crime!♬
13hr ago
When you see some genuinely unimpressive ancient ruins, possibly Sparta itself, read this text from Thucydides:
For I suppose if Lacedaemon [Sparta] were to become desolate, and the temples and the foundations of the public buildings were left, that as time went on there would be a strong disposition with posterity to refuse to accept her fame as a true exponent of her power. And yet they occupy two-fifths of Peloponnese and lead the whole, not to speak of their numerous allies without. Still, as the city is neither built in a compact form nor adorned with magnificent temples and public edifices, but composed of villages after the old fashion of Hellas, there would be an impression of inadequacy. Whereas, if Athens were to suffer the same misfortune, I suppose that any inference from the appearance presented to the eye would make her power to have been twice as great as it is.
Who all is going? Would the group have more fun at a museum, restaurant, beach, boat, walking in a city, hiking?
self_made_human
Grippy socks, grippy box
13hr ago
and keeping them around.
I think that's the issue. You will have a hard time recruiting when they know you intend to keep them underwater.
Dude. Do you lack a sense of humor? This isn't intended to be an insult, but I am genuinely confused. I clarified that quite a bit of my apparent hostility towards bird fanciers is a joke. I can get annoyed by certain types of people at times, but I don't wish death upon them. I also make it a general policy not to fistfight tigers on behalf of strangers, you've gotta be close family or a loved one to make me consider that. I do not think we're family, and I do not think I sleep with you.
You're taking this to a place of literalism that's honestly baffling. "Can I start ending my arguments on the motte with die in a fire if I promise it's rhetorical?" No, because "die in a fire" is a bottom-tier, uncreative, stock internet insult. My tiger comment, while admittedly pointed, was at least bespoke. It was also clearly not meant to be serious, I enjoy making jokes. If it wasn't clear then, for the love of God I hope it's clear now. There's a difference between sharp, theatrical hyperbole meant to illustrate a point with some flavor, and just being generically hostile.
On the topic of my grandmother: you seem to think you've found some grand "gotcha." You haven't. You've simply discovered the concept of "scaffolding" in teaching.
Of course I wouldn't dump the entire "fallible but brilliant intern" model on a complete novice in one go. That's not how you explain anything complex. You break it down. The "genius with the world's worst memory" is a facet of the intern model.
I would tell the hypothetical grandma, due to a paucity of my own:
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This is an AI. It can talk just like a human, in text or speech. It can even do video one way. (A grandma isn't using Ani from Grok, anime avatars aren't a concern)
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It is not actually a human. But you can mostly treat it as a human, if you keep in mind the following:
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You need to introduce yourself to it, it knows nothing about you. Think of it as an intern you just met.
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It doesn't remember previous conversations by default. There are exceptions, granny, but there not too relevant here.
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It's really smart! But it's also forgetful, can make errors, so please double check what it says if it's not more important than ideal dress to Bingo Night.
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It can and will flatter you, my what lovely eyes you have granny. Please be careful about whether it's agreeing with you because you're right or because it wants to please you.
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It is good at: X, Y and Z. And bad at:.. If you really need A or B, then maybe consider this funny little fella named Claude.
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More depending on the context.
That is a perfectly good framework. Now, compare that list of actionable, non-technical advice to the guidance offered by the "stochastic parrot" model. What would that list look like?
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This is a parrot.
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It just repeats things it's heard without understanding them.
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...That's it. That's the whole model.
And this brings me back to your final, bizarre point about me paying for ChatGPT Plus. You think that's a "confession" of bias. I think it's the very foundation of my argument. You don't develop a nuanced, multi-part user model like the one I just laid out by casually playing with the free version. You develop it through deep, sustained use. I was running into the tool's limitations day after day and systematically figuring out the strategies that work. I was doing this well before it was cool.
Plus being a "confession" of bias is a wild misapplication of pop psychology. By that logic, no one who pays for a product can ever be a credible critic or analyst of it. The person who buys a Ford F-150 can't tell you about its turning radius? The person who subscribes to The Economist is just engaging in post-purchase rationalization when they recommend an article? It's absurd.
I pay for it because I use it extensively, both for work and for leisure. That heavy use is precisely why I have a well-developed opinion on its capabilities, its flaws, and the best mental models for using it effectively. It's a credential for my argument, not a disqualifier.
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
13hr ago
without links to the writings of X, Y, and Z
Y, and Z may be missing, but he did link to deBoer.
sarker
It isn't happening, and if it is, it's a bad thing
13hr ago
You're thinking of "whole language".
sarker
It isn't happening, and if it is, it's a bad thing
13hr ago
By claiming that standards matter i am effectively take taking a shit on the foundational beliefs of Steve Sailer, Friedliche DeBoer, and a number of users here including at least one moderator.
It's a little strange to read a polemic against X, Y, and Z without links to the writings of X, Y, and Z that we are supposed to think are wrong. Well, it's not that weird in general, but it's weird for this forum.
This post is a kind of anti-Bulverism where you wish that we assume you are right and fill in the argument (and the supporting evidence) post-hoc. Are you really shitting on the foundational beliefs of the above named? Would they be surprised to learn that "standards matter" is shitting on their foundational beliefs?
Also, the German name is "Friedrich".
RandomRanger
Just build nuclear plants!
13hr ago
Is it a good life if you dedicate your life to video games?
Depends on how good the game is. A posthuman game might well be more complex, dynamic and interesting than our lives.
The most popular games today like fortnite or LoL are closer to the skinner-box, dopamine VR-headset future. They have to be cheap to run so they're not going to be that fantastic.
Whether it's competition, entertainment of others or enjoyment I see greater complexity and resources as an unalloyed good in terms of video-game value. At minimum it should be better than 'sit in an office and do various manipulations of text.'
NunoSempere
13hr ago
Some items I'm looking at this week:
Geopolitics
Americas
Trump and Putin to meet in coming days, Kremlin says
Haiti Armed Violence Kills Over 3,100 in 6 Months in 2025
National Weather Service to rehire after deep DOGE cuts – NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth
Some items from the Trump administration:
- Excluding illegal immigrants from census?
- Semiconductor tariffs announced, but extent unclear
- 25% tariff on India over Russian oil imports
Europe
300 sick children from Gaza to be evacuated to the UK
Trump's Deadline For The Kremlin Looms But Putin Shows No Sign Of Making Concessions
Middle East
Hezbollah to treat Lebanon's disarmament decision 'as if it does not exist'
Hezbollah warns it will resume firing missiles at Israel if it ramps up operations in Lebanon
Iran
Iran sets up new defence council in wake of war with Israel
This is what Khameini losing power might look like?
Gaza
Jordan, Egypt, UAE deliver more humanitarian supplies to Gaza
Netanyahu says Israel intends to take control of all of Gaza (1:10), in order to, he says, liberate the people of Gaza from Hamas, and pass control over to a civilian government that is not calling for the destruction of Israel.
Israeli military chief opposes Gaza war expansion
Israel Security Cabinet Clears Netanyahu's Plan to Occupy Gaza City
'Occupy entire Gaza or resign': Netanyahu tells IDF chief, reports Israeli media as talks with Hamas stall
Over 1,000 packages airdropped over Gaza in 2 weeks-Xinhua
Indonesia to treat 2,000 injured Gazans on Galang island
China opposes Israel's 'dangerous' plan to occupy Gaza
How much aid has entered Gaza?
It doesn't actually do the math,
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Higher end: 84 trucks per day * 90 m^3 per standard truck * 1000 liters per m^3 * 8000 kcal per liter (caloric density of oil) / 2.1M Gazans = 28,000 kcal per person per day
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Lower end: 84 trucks per day * 18 m^3 per van * 75% full (?) * 1000 liters per m^3 * 700 kcal per liter (caloric density of grain) / 2.1M Gazans = 405 kcal per person per day
Can we get better bounds?
Yemen
Asia
Microsoft Used China-Based Engineers to Support Product Recently Hacked by China
Severe outbreak of mosquito-borne chikungunya virus infects 8,000 in China
Bird flu confirmed in six-year-old Cambodian girl
A series of reports witnessing the practice of the "steel arteries" serving the strengthening and prospering of the military in the new era. China integrates its railway system more with military logistics.
China looking into ways to disable the Starlink constellation
Chinese and Russian naval fleets complete maritime exercises, transition to joint sea patrol on August 6
Indonesia's Mount Lewotobi Laki Laki erupts again, spewing giant ash plumes miles away
China (potentially) Faces EU Sanctions over Secret Drone Shipments to Russia's Military
Bangladesh teeters between hope and deadlock a year after Hasina's fall
Mobile Internet blackout across Balochistan amid rising security threats
India/Pakistan
Bangladesh: 121 Killed, Over 5,000 Injured in 471 Political Violence Incidents Since Yunus Took Office
Africa
Sudan: El-Fasher faces famine as supplies cut off, UN says
Sudan accuses UAE of bringing in Colombian mercenaries to support RSF
Sudan military destroyed UAE plane carrying Colombian mercenaries
South-East Nigeria rocked by insecurity, healthcare crisis
Study finds militant Islamists have killed 22,307 in Africa over the last one year, gained significant territory
Islamists have killed over 22,300 in Africa this last year
Pentagon: U.S. Counterterrorism Efforts Have Failed Africans
African armies turn to drones with devastating civilian impact
Rwanda: Ceasefire in Doubt As Rwanda-Backed Rebels Kill Hundreds in Eastern DR Congo
Bio
Antibodies for Strep A
Ghana approves breakthrough malaria drug for babies — but research is 'on ice' amid US funding cuts
How mRNA Vaccine Cuts and Egg Dependency Leave the U.S. Exposed to a Bird Flu Pandemic
Tech and AI
Open Source release of gpt
Trying to steal TSMC trade secrets
Users who bonded with GPT-4o complaining it's going away
Global Economy
Trump tariffs on semiconductors
Misc
Associated Press Runs Sympathetic Story Checking On Hezbollah Terrorists Injured In 'Grim Beeper' Operation
self_made_human
Grippy socks, grippy box
13hr ago
Thank you! I hope to go visit the States this winter itself (friend's wedding), but I'm not entirely sure if the visa stuff will get done in time. I should have been on that, instead of futzing about in London. If I do, I'll try to ensure I do a lap of the country, and make time to shoot the shit (semi-literally) with you.
Yeah, it wasn't very good. Also the weird speech from Jesus about their legal drama with Paramount. I didn't feel offended, but kind of bored and confused, like their characters should go grill pill at Casa Molina or something. There was a funny scene with Randy talking to his digital assistant with his wife looking grumpy next to him. There was an episode where everyone came in from Denver and tried to order cortados from a few years back was pretty funny. Scott's most recent Bay Area House Party post would make a good episode.
self_made_human
Grippy socks, grippy box
14hr ago
It reads as LLM output to me as well -- more importantly failing the everpresent tl;dr criterion.
This is intended to be shared elsewhere, in the near future. Attention spans are fickle, and the use of a conclusionary section is 100% an intentional measure for a dense piece. Don't tell me LLMs have a monopoly on writing conclusions or TLDRs. I have written both before GPT-2 was a twinkle in a twink's Altman's eye.
So while I'm not sure how posting a bunch of screenshots of you chatting with an LLM is supposed to make people think that you didn't generate the post using an LLM, if it's the case that you take so much input from the LLM that your post sets off people's LLM alarms
That's the best evidence I have. As explained somewhere nearby in this thread, this essay began as a reply to EverythingIsFine that quickly ended up becoming so large that I decided to take it elsewhere. By that point, 80% of the work or more was done, I just needed to make sure I was done tidying up citations. You can see me double checking for anything I missed, and it turns out there wasn't much written on the exact metrics of patient satisfaction. I still had those tabs right at hand, and I made sure to show how I was going about this.
I tried to demonstrate that:
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The bulk of the essay was written my me. LLM usage was used to help me consider areas to rephrase or re-arrange for clarity. In situations where that was warranted, I saw nothing wrong with copying short snippets of their output (which was a remix of my work!).
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The essay recapsulates things I have personally said on this very forum. I wasn't looking at those comments at the time I was writing this, but anyone can see the exceedingly similar phrasing and argumentation. That is strong evidence that this is my own work. As a matter of fact, half of what I've written in responses to different queries also are things I've said before, in some capacity. There isn't much new under the sun, or on the Motte. We rehash a lot of the same points.
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There is clear evidence of me writing the essay at a very particular time, and once again, letting EIF that I saw his original reply, and that I was almost done writing a substantial message as a standalone essay. That represents 3+ hours I was writing said essay. This can't be faked without implausible levels of foresight or conspiracy.
Further:
Accusations of use of AI are nigh-unfalsifiable. Someone down below said that people suspected that their essay on Reddit was AI, until that person noticed it was written around 2020. It is rather exhausting to defend against, at best, and I do not even see my actions as objectionable. It's >80% my writing. I fact checked everything, from my own recollections to suggestions from the LLMs I asked for advice, which took over an hour. I write top-level posts where I advocate for more people learning to use LLMs in a productive capacity, and explain how to do it when it comes to writing. I have nothing to hide.
And most importantly of all:
Why do many people object to LLM usage? Why do even I draw a distinction between good usage of chatbots, and bad/value-negative behavior?
It can be a substitute for independent thought. It can be used to gish-gallop and stonewall. It can have hallucinations or outright distortions of truth. It can be boring to read.
I ask you to show any of the above. As far as I'm concerned, there's none.
Some people have developed an innate distaste for any text with even minor signs of AI usage, let alone when the user is admitting he used them in some capacity. This is not entirely irrational, because there's a lot of slop out there and memetic antibodies are inevitable. I think this is an over correction in the opposite direction. I'm annoyed by the fact that I had to waste time dealing with this and defending myself. Because of the implication if nothing else.
maybe you are just working a little to hard on this, and it would be better to simply give us the straight slop?
You might be surprised to hear that I have been doing this for the past 24 hours. Barring @Rov_Scam specifically asking me to resume an experiment we had discussed weeks back, I intentionally refrained from even touching an LLM while using the Motte. This was mostly for the sake of proving to myself that I have no issues doing so, and why would I have issues? LLMs weren't good enough for this kind of work for ages, and I was a regular here well before then.
To a degree, this is also confounded by me being extremely sleep deprived, including at present. I guess doctors are just used to having to operate under such conditions. I also started as annoyed by what I perceive as unfair accusations or, the very least, smearing by association. To be charitable, this might not have been intentional by the people who pointed out that I had made use of LLMs (once again, something I've literally never denied, and have pro-actively declared).
I can do my work/leisure unaided. After the experiment, I am just as firmly of the opinion that 90% self_made_human and 10% a potpourrie of LLMs is better than either one by itself. That is a personal opinion. I have demonstrated effort in the past, I do so now, and I do not think I've made a mistake.
While I'm in favour of people being "allowed" to do more or less anything they want (direct and deliberate harm to others aside), in practice the whole thing feels... not good, in the pit of my stomach -- mostly I don't like the "assisted" part all that much, nor the moral preening that seems to go along with it. Could be that people just don't know how to do this thing correctly yet, but I'm not sure that's all there is too it.
I do not like the idea of killing people. That's usually the opposite of what a doctor seeks to do. I think that in some circumstances, it aligns with the wishes of those involved, and is a kindness. I would prefer everyone sit tight and try to wait it out till we cure most or all disease, including aging itself. That aspiration (which I consider pretty plausible) is of little utility when a 90 year old woman is dying in agony and asking to go out on her own terms. The Bailey, which I am willing to defend, includes far less obvious cases, but that's informed by my firm opinions and professional knowledge, and once again, I would prefer to cure rather than kill. But if cures aren't on the cards, I think society should allow death with dignity, and I would take on that onerous task.
Throwaway05
14hr ago
Not a lot, but google image search it and you'll see why.
urquan
Hold! What you are doing to us is wrong! Why do you do this thing?
14hr ago
My mom found out she was allergic to penicillin as a little girl, when she had anaphylaxis. Fortunately she was ok and it hasn’t affected her life much.
But also yeah, antibiotic side effects can be real. It beats pneumonia, but uncontrollable diarrhea and stomach upset isn’t fun. Took me a while before I was back to normal.
wayfarer
15hr ago
it would seem that having standards and enforcing them may actually matter.
I may misremember things, but AFAIK they replaced failed way to teach reading by older boring one that works? (AFAIK the bad one is named "whole word")
TequilaMockingbird
Brown-skinned Fascist MAGA boot-licker
15hr ago
Citation needed?
Know your meme.
wayfarer
15hr ago
According to all known laws of physics and aviation there is no way that a bumble bee ought to be able to fly.
[citation needed]
wayfarer
15hr ago
They can ruin the natural balance of the gut microbiome
oh, I forgot that one, thanks!
hepatic enzyme induces or inhibitors
and was not aware at all of that, double thanks!
Overuse or misuse of antibiotics can lead to antibiotic-resistant infections
I tried to cover this with "overuse/misuse reducing their effectiveness"
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
15hr ago
what's there?
Muninn
"Dick Laurent is dead."
15hr ago
I'm up for it, though I'm concerned that enough of you fuckers the fine Mottizens that are graciously volunteering in this very thread are deeply steeped in the knowledge of Pennsylvania's football teams to prevent me from scooping up later round bargains. Speaking of which, I fully reserve the right to draft a defense in the 9th round or a kicker in the 10th, and in fact to fuck up my entire draft because my other league is a full PPR league with 6 points for QB touchdowns and no kickers.
You may think this, it might actually be true for you. That is not why the meme exists. Nybbler is correct. The meme exists for 2 reasons: 1) The "Hello HR" meme is true to life; and 2) Reality produces approximately 1 Marie Curie a century, whereas it produces dozens of her male equivalents. I was once an engineering student. Lady engineering students, as a rule, just flirt to get their work done by the men.
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