sarker
ketman hetman
Suddenly I cannot remember the color of your eyes
Or the things we said as we stood together for the last time
User ID: 636
sarker
ketman hetman
17hr ago
Seems like you kind of made that up out of whole cloth. Do you have any support for this claim? How does a game about (approximately) a single father relate to the nuclear family?
It seems much more likely that this game really is popular among pedos. This is not to say that this was intentional on capcom's part, or that you can't play this game as a normal person, of course.
sarker
ketman hetman
19hr ago
this sleazy game feeds into the typical male fantasy of being the protector and patriarch of a nuclear family where he is supposedly owed sex, affection, food, services etc. His subjugated wife is the idealized woman who is virtuous and yet hot, basically a personal slut.
I don't follow. What is the nuclear family here? Who is the wife? Is this not a game where you play as a human with an "android" sidekick that looks like a child?
sarker
ketman hetman
2d ago
Find someone who's been around the block to take you under their wing, ideally a striver and/or middle manager. Endear yourself to them, but don't be cringe.. They can help you get promoted, find a better position in the company as they advance in their career, or help you get your foot in the door if they leave for a better place.
sarker
ketman hetman
2d ago
The fact that they (allegedly) regularly make illegal moves is evidence of it.
It really depends on the model. Some of them don't make illegal moves, or at least do so rarely.
sarker
ketman hetman
2d ago
I don't care about chess,
Really? Then why are you talking about tracking the state of the chess game?
This is just incorrect, and you know it. Stop muddying the waters.
I already said:
I admit I couldn't find examples of people testing LLMs' ability to continually update e.g. a FEN representation of the board.
There's really no need to get so touchy.
sarker
ketman hetman
3d ago
Does your car "analyze different approaches with their respective tradeoffs and implement the solution it thinks best" when you apply the anti-lock braking system?
Can't say my car has ever presented me with multiple options when I press the brakes.
sarker
ketman hetman
3d ago
I admit I couldn't find examples of people testing LLMs' ability to continually update e.g. a FEN representation of the board. However, I did find that (certain) LLMs have actually been able to play chess just given the moves made so far (no actual visualization of the board, no harness) and make legal next moves since 2023. If you have an explanation of how it's doing that with no internal model of the board (as shown in this paper for a toy model), I'm all ears.
Agreed. Let me ask you this: Now that you understand what I meant with the word "database," do you disagree with anything I have said?
I think we agree that LLMs learn from seeing chess games. I don't agree that LLMs aren't modeling chess at all - there seems to be no evidence for this. A thinking trace of a chess game with an LLM would certainly show the LLM trying to think about possible moves and evaluating their trade offs, even in the absence of a game board that it uses to keep state. I'm sure they are more likely to make mistakes if they aren't keeping track of the board, but so are humans.
To be honest, I'm not sure what kind of evidence would change your mind here if existing thinking traces are not enough. Anthropic researchers found that models are doing complex modeling for tasks as simple as deciding when to start a new line when writing text. Looking into a model to really understand how it's modeling something as complicated as a chess game would require a research budget.
Edit: there was a dude who trained a small model on next token prediction and found that it maintains a board state internally. So I guess now we can put this to bed?
Yes, as far as I know, at the moment humans are capable of making and using more sophisticated models of chess than are LLMs. (To the extent that LLMs are capable of making models along the lines you described.)
Sure, in the sense that good human players can beat LLMs at chess. That said, the best models play at a class C level and do significantly better than the average chess.com player, which I think is hard to explain away by appealing to the models having memorized a bunch of openings.
sarker
ketman hetman
3d ago
By not modeling chess. I mean, even if one allows that an LLM can set up a rudimentary model along the lines you describe, it's not carved into stone anywhere that they must do so.
I genuinely don't understand what we're talking about anymore. It's not carved into stone that a human must set up a rudimentary model to play a game of chess either. Is there any distinction, in your view, between LLMs and humans in the chess scenario?
sarker
ketman hetman
3d ago
poor for functionally utilizing said knowledge, especially in matters complex, unusual, or otherwise not 1:1 with stuff from their training material.
Like I said:
Dismissing as mere sophistry novel LLM-discovered software exploits and math theorems is absurd.
"LLMs haven't written a beautiful symphony or designed a beautiful building" is simply moving the goal posts. There's no reason that those are the true test of putting things together and theorems and exploits don't count.
sarker
ketman hetman
3d ago
This argument smells like the old canard of LLMs not being able to do anything novel, not being able to do anything that they haven't seen before. Again, I think this can be dismissed out of hand now that LLMs are solving open math problems.
LLMs don't do anything like that ever.
LLMs don't make plans while evaluating tradeoffs and then do things to put those plans into action? I don't know how you can even believe that in May 2026. Have you never used a coding agent and had it plan a solution, seen it analyze different approaches with their respective tradeoffs, and seen it propose the option it thinks is best?
sarker
ketman hetman
3d ago
Do you dispute this claim?
Only to the extent that this claim applies to humans too, so it's not clear to me how this is supposed to draw a line between what humans do and what LLMs do.
After a few postcards go back and forth, you decide it would be helpful to set up a chessboard in order to keep track of what's going on and for each move
Okay. But we know that LLMs can keep track of the game by printing the current state of the board and updating each time you or it make a move. So in what way do LLMs not model chess?
sarker
ketman hetman
3d ago
What changes is that one is completely wrong and the other is defensible. One leads you to think that an LLM recognizing Shakespeare (or a lesser author) from a sample of writing is an unremarkable feat, an information retrieval problem that's been solved for forty years. The other causes you to realize that what's going on here is much deeper.
sarker
ketman hetman
3d ago
relatively robust colloquial understanding of these models.
This doesn't exist, at least on this forum on down. There's at least one person I talked to who really thought that LLMs were looking through the training data at inference time. It turns out that people using sloppy language ""colloquially"" ("joke's on you, I was only pretending to misunderstand LLMs") can cause people to believe the literal meaning if they don't know any better.
This is just not a relevant distinction when it comes to the human concept of memory.
Agreed.
I’ll keep pushing this because “actually, an LLM doesn’t have memory of the training set” isn’t really true.
This isn't what I said. I said it doesn't have access to the training set, in the same way that if you take an exam without "access" to the textbook you're not allowed to bring it in and leaf through it when answering the problems. It doesn't preclude you from reading the textbook a thousand times and memorizing it verbatim though.
What is this supposed to prove? There are people who have memorized the Torah or the Quran. It's still not the case that they are merely doing some kind of database lookup when you ask them about a verse, and that implies a fidelity that simply doesn't exist. And if you concede that there isn't perfect fidelity, one wonders what the purpose of discussing "database lookups" in the context of LLM inference is other than rhetoric.
When 1:1 outputs from their memories of training data can't exist, they reach for similar patterns and smooth over the disjunctions using sophistry.
Dismissing as mere sophistry novel LLM-discovered software exploits and math theorems is absurd.
sarker
ketman hetman
3d ago
What do you call the set of data used to train an LLM? Is it just "training data"?
The point is that the training data is not accessible at inference time. To the extent that being trained on chess data gives the LLM information about how to respond to a particular opening, it's because the LLM has learned that information, similarly to how a human studying openings has.
But anyway, my point is that it's possible for an LLM to make legal chess moves without actually modeling chess. Do you dispute this?
Sure, in the same way that it's possible for a human to make legal chess moves without modeling chess:
- you could just get lucky and make random moves that happen to be legal
- you might know how all the pieces move and that the goal is a checkmate but have basically no understanding of strategy (I am here btw)
- the above, but you might have studied a book on chess openings and endgames
It's unclear to me at which point even a human can be said to "model" chess.
sarker
ketman hetman
3d ago
based on all the chess games stored in its database.
It doesn't have a "database," this is a fundamental misunderstanding of what's going on under the hood. With LLMs solving open math problems, I'm puzzled that the discourse remains around "it's just doing what it's seen before" with various levels of unsound understanding.
sarker
ketman hetman
5d ago
I expect naval vessels didn't have swimming pools in those days.
Check your state laws - doctor cartels have made it illegal to access PTs indefinitely without a doctor's stamp of approval in many states.
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