This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Top level seems sparse this week, I posted this just before Trump's verdict was dropping and I thought it might be at least a little entertaining, so I would like to proffer it again as an unsung culture war issue, BOATS!
Boating/Fishing and Right Wing Associations.
Inspired by a post in Wellness Wednesday, it took on a bit of a culture war tone as I wrote my response.
To the best of my recollection this is kind of a thing that started really turning ugly during covid. The notion guys with fish in their profile picks were all right wing anti-vaxxers because an odd amount of the posts on the hermaincainaward subreddit had a dude with a fish held high in their profile...
I've seen that "trend" other places where people have kind of sussed out a correlation of fish pictures and right wing proclivities, I just did a quick search on the tinder subreddit and others, I've found the question going back at least 6 years.. There are dozens more posts like this every year asking "Why all the fish pics" or "Stop with the fish pics".
There were also those boat parades for Trump etc...recreational power boating and ocean fishing are generally very white, sometimes wealthy. Fly fishing is even whiter and wealthier, think float plane trips to remote Alaskan camps and guided week long floats down untouched rivers. Bass fishing is white redneck hick Trump central and that is what a lot of people think of because of the televised tournaments and occasional news articles, add in a little cruelty to animals and you've got a stew going.
Some on the more extreme left, and probably a lot of young women of dating age must figure if you're fishing from shore or bass fishing you're a white trash trumper. They figure if you're fishing from a boat or racing to a sandbar to party that you're middle class to small business owner, killing animals for fun and burning gas while polluting the world, and if you're fly fishing in Kamchatka or deep sea fishing from a GT70 then you're a fat cat that needs to be eaten when the revolution comes (but maybe that won't be for a while so let's see where this goes).
https://old.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/quo8p7/grandpa_catches_a_big_fish_and_a_big_virus/ https://old.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/rb2tzq/update_guy_thought_he_was_a_legend_for_not_taking/ https://old.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/nyoc9z/why_do_they_all_have_boats/ https://old.reddit.com/r/unpopularopinion/comments/168ivpu/when_men_hold_up_fish_in_their_dating_profile/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Tinder/comments/u5eaiy/whats_wrong_with_fish_pictures_i_see_so_many/
I'm going to quote my own comment on anti-Conservative dating discrimination
Let's apply this simple system to Fish Pictures. Let's start by positing that Tweets have been tweeted around left wing feminine twitter and articles written on left wing feminine-coded websites about how fish pictures are unattractive. This is definitely true, Fish Picture discourse exists, as you provide examples of. As soon as that is the case, the phenomenon is self sustaining. If you're using a Fish Picture, you are perceived as either out of touch with the social discourse, or so incredibly obsessed with right wing politics, I mean fish, that you it's the only picture you have. Neither is attractive in a mate. Even if an individual woman doesn't mind fishing in and of itself, she may still discriminate against Fish Pictures because she things it signals a guy who is either socially inept or fish obsessed, because she knows other girls discriminate against Fish Pictures.
It's a good way to select for guys who read the same twitter feeds and thinkpieces you do, where they would have learned that Fish Pictures are bad and maybe racist or something.
You might be right that that's how it works now. But I want to imagine that the Fish Picture debate started for simpler, more innocent reasons- just a fundamental disconnect between how Men and Women present themselves and see the world.
The men aren't choosing the fish pictures because it's the only picture they have. OK, maybe some are- men usually don't take nearly as many pictures as women, and they don't pose for pics with a friend holding the camera taking multiple shots to take the perfect selfie like women do. But still, they do have other pics. They choose the fish pic because they think it's a good picture!
They think "I should show a picture that shows off my hobbies. I'm outdoors, doing something healthy and vaguely athletic. Here's me in my crowning moment of triumph, having just caught a fish! I have a genuine, happy smile. And it's in a boat, so I can subtly show off that I have at least a little bit of money to afford some recreational equipment."
And women see that and it just BOMBS. They don't see any of the stuff that the men are trying to communicate. They think "What is this gross cold slimey thing? Does he enjoy torturing animals for fun? This picture is at a terrible angle, it's focused on his nostrils. And he's sunburned- obviously not a guy who takes care of his skin. That boat looks gross, too. Why doesn't he have any normal hobbies, like shopping or baking fancy cakes?"
I'm really confused by your summary. What's the disconnect in how men and women see the world that you're outlining here?
I'm probably a little effeminate, I'm certainly no angler, but I'm reading that and your summary of the male position strikes me as almost unbelievably stupid. Fishing as an athletic activity? Are these men really that dumb? I wouldn't fuck him either, frankly.
The female perspective is persnickety and bratty and bitchy, but probably accurate to a reasonable approximation.
I agree with you on balance that some women genuinely disliking fish pictures started the ball rolling, but the far greater effect that makes fish pictures a meme and accentuates their unattractiveness is the knowledge that they are unattractive socially. Once that becomes common knowledge, it is fatal.
out of curiousity, have you ever gone fishing in your life?
edit: to be less snarky. I wasn't trying to do a steelman that makes either side look good. I was just trying to summarize the thinking that I've seen on both sides. Some of which is admittedly quite stupid.
Probably a dozen or so times. Though fairly casually beyond one big sailing trip from Islamorada to Key West and back, when we fished intermittently but constantly for two weeks.
I will say I've never been fly fishing, which I understand is a very different animal.
Like I said I'm no angler. But I see very little visible correlation between fishing performance and athleticism in my friends.
OK fair enough. I wasn't trying to imply that it's some sort of hardcore athletic championship. Just that it's... something! It involves using your body in the real world, using muscles and physical skill. It's "touching grass" as the kids these days say. It's something non-digital. Plus all the other stuff I said about it being happy, natural, expensive, etc.
If women only want guys who have won a major athletics tournament than we are truly doomed as a species.
Don't give up so easily, we just have to come up with approximately 4 billion athletic competitions, and split the prizes.
Once I set a challenge at my gym for everyone to build a "personal pentathlon." That is, pick 5 exercises/events that you think the lowest percentage of people could beat you at all 5. No matter how unusual the exercises or strange the combination, what can you do that no one else could do better all at once?
I'm no hero when it comes down to it, but I don't think 1% of the population could beat me at all five of: Moonboard climbing max V3-4 climbs in 30 minutes, 5min kettlebell snatch test @28kg, max muscle ups in 10 minutes, 1rm power clean and push jerk, 2k row for time. I'm not even good by hobbyist standards at some of those choices, but I'm good enough to pip most people. The guys who can out climb better than me rarely jerk more, the guys who jerk more rarely climb.
So that's one method.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link