This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
To what extent do you think it's appropriate to judge someone else for their body type? Would you assess someone that was weak, small, or skinny as also lacking in character?
I think these days basic nutrition knowledge is pretty widespread. I mean it's not very good quality - someone that says "you need carbs for energy" is missing the mark but they at least have the concept of a macronutrient. I did meet a guy once who I had to explain what calories, protein and carbohydrates were to.
I think it's reasonable to infer that, all things being equal, an able-bodied person who's visibly fit or strong has more discipline than an able-bodied person who is neither of those things (with certain caveats: it requires more discipline to hit the gym several times a week as opposed to working a job in which you're using your body all day long).
Other than genetics, the only thing that will have any meaningful impact on one's height is childhood nutrition (or lack thereof) - neither of which an adult has any control over as an adult. (For clarity: it's not reasonable to expect a five-year-old to feed themselves, never mind to feed themselves healthily. If they wind up shorter than one would expect based on family history because of poor childhood nutrition, then they're a victim of child abuse.)
It's an old joke/grievance, but short male incels are entirely justified to point out that it's completely unfair that making fun of a man for his height is seen as perfectly fair game, but making fun of a woman for her weight is seen as beyond the pale.
Who says it’s beyond the pale to make fun of fat women? It’s not the politest joke in the world, but neither is the short guy humor.
It's a hard thing to quantify, but I think a talk show host who made a joke at a fat woman's expense would face far greater social disapproval than one who made fun of a short man. I think Graham Norton or Jimmy Fallon could get away with teasing a man for being short (provided he wasn't a literal dwarf) in a way they couldn't if they had Lizzo or Rebel Wilson on as a guest. Nicole Kidman joked that one of the best things about divorcing Tom Cruise was that she could wear heels again, and got a huge laugh. If a male celebrity was married to Lizzo and divorced her, if he made an equivalent joke on a mainstream chat show people would be appalled. The body positivity movement pointedly does not include short men under its remit.
You don’t have to listen to the body positivity movement.
I know I don't, and indeed I don't. My point is that I think it's very telling that the movement exists, is influential, and is by and for overweight women.
I've heard that it was actually by and for men who love overweight women who wanted both to encourage more overweight women and a group where it's easy to meet a lot of overweight women, though I haven't checked deeply for the veracity. Perhaps it's been fully coopted by overweight women by now, though, regardless of the origins.
I have hate-followed the HAES/Body Positivity/Intuitive Eating movement for years. It is absolutely for fat women. There are a few fat men in the movement (though they mostly keep quiet because they will quickly be told that they don't suffer as much from society's fatphobia as women do), and there may be a handful of fat-fetishists, but the vast majority are fat women who want to be told that they are sexy and desirable and healthy and don't need to change a thing.
I’ve always found this part of women’s culture baffling. A men’s fat-group would be one focused on solving the problem rather than wanting to change society to accommodate their own lack of discipline. It’s self-defeating in a very broad sense to suggest that the solution to “people don’t like that I’m fat,” is to demand that people stop noticing that you’re fat rather than joining a gym or eating less or something else that would make you less fat.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link