This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I am very pro-mass deportation but it seems nearly impossible to do at scale in practice with current laws regardless of the money/political capital thrown at it. I understand that we haven’t even really been trying to enforce immigration laws and have in fact been showering illegal immigrants with money and benefits, but even if we stop all of that, I don’t think we can make a serious dent in the illegal immigrant population.
I’m Jose Gonzalez from Mexico, I cross the border illegally without being apprehended, and go live at my cousins apartment in El Paso. I work as a day laborer paid in cash, don’t have a bank account, and have never had a formal interaction with the state where my fingerprints or anything were taken. ICE raids my workplace and I tell them I’m Jose Gonzalez, I’m a US citizen, and I don’t say another word the whole time. How could they affirmatively prove that I’m not? I don’t understand how anyone who wasn’t apprehended and fingerprinted at the border can be deported without significant time being put into an investigation. What’s the way around this unless we can change the law so that the burden of proof is on the individual to prove citizenship?
It seems possible that a lot of the recent wave that claimed asylum could be deported, but I’d imagine that still leaves ~5-10 million who did it the old fashioned way. I think the only way to seriously mass deport is to make it impossible to work as a non-citizen, which would be massively disruptive to agriculture, restaurants, construction etc. in the short term and would be extremely difficult and probably have costly effects to the economy (as far as the costs of compliance for small businesses, not strawberries being more expensive) to enforce perpetually.
Like, on the spot? Nobody carries around proof of citizenship.
I have a drivers license that proves I’m a citizen because my state offers it so some people do…
That proves that you were a citizen (or a legal alien) when it was issued, it doesn't mean you are one now.
Legal aliens are not eligible for Enhanced IDs given one of the requirements is an ACTIVE US passport and the ID expires the same day the passport does.
I mean I suppose I could have given up my citizenship in the interim for all practical purposes it’s proof of citizenship.
Okay, sure, if you live in one of the five states that issue EDLs and you opt to receive one, you got me there.
A passport card, available to any citizen, has the same qualities (except that it doesn't serve as a driver's license). I have one because it was easier to do that than get a New Jersey RealID (which is not an EDL) in the case that the Feds do finally implement the RealID requirement for domestic air travel.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Well this has been an impossible problem for a long time, at least as long as Byzantium deployed its first generals.
More options
Context Copy link
Isn't that an impossibly high standard?
Like, you can prove that you were issued a driver's license, but you can't prove that you have a valid one now. I'm sure there's a way around that issue.
For a non-citizen, if you have only 6 months left on your visa and you have to get your drivers license renewed, then then that license will only be valid for 6 months. Moreover, if you go to a local courthouse to renew it, your number won't come up on a regular search. It is necessary to go to a DMV building to get a license renewed. The drivers license number database apparently flags when a license belongs to a non-citizen, or at least flags it when additional steps for renewal are necessary. I don't know if this flag is visible to law enforcement when they search a license number, but there's a good chance it is. I suppose if you violated the conditions of your visa, then you could be residing illegally while still appearing to have a valid license. However, I suspect since they can't issue a license that is valid beyond the expiration date of a visa, that violating the visa would then automatically void the drivers license
Legal aliens are not eligible for Enhanced IDs given one of the requirements is an active US passport and the ID expires the same day the passport does.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
The way around the issue is that the cop takes your DL back to the squad car and looks you up in the state database of drivers' licenses. There's no analogous database of citizens.
Then it's not so much "Nobody carries around..." as "There is nothing that could be carried for...". That seems like a bigger problem.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I presume drivers license numbers must be flagged in searches to show if the holder is not a citizen, because green card holders can't just renew their drivers license at a local courthouse. If they try, their number doesn't come up in the search. They have to go to a DMV building. The database knows they're not citizens (or at least it knows they have this special condition on renewing their license), so it's definitely possible to infer citizenship from a drivers license number search. I don't know if ICE officers are capable of conducting this type of search.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link