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Notes -
There a fun dramatic little scissor statement happening in the rationalist / post rationalist corner of twitter at the moment. Started by @_brentbaum talking about his girlfriend's high agency:
I, and many others, chimed in saying hey wait a second... this is actually kind of concerning! Some of the negative responses:
and my personal favorite:
As I said though, this is apparently a scissor statement because a ton of people also had the OPPOSITE reaction. Some examples:
etc etc.
Now the reason I find this fascinating is that it's one of the clearest breakdowns between consequentialists and virtue ethicists I've yet seen in the wild. Most people defending the girl of 'scarfgate' are basically just saying "what's the harm? nobody ever goes back for those scarfs. besides they're like $20 most of the time anyway."
Unfortunately a lot of folks get drawn into this argument, and start saying things like well, what if somebody comes back for it later and it's gone? Or what if someone's grandma knitted them that scarf?
To me, going down the consequentialist route is doomed to fail. You can justify all sorts of horrible things in the name of consequentialist morality. (Same with deontology, to be fair.) My take is that this is wrong because she directly lied to someone's face, and then proceeded to steal someone else's property. The fact that most people think it's cute and quirky is probably down to a sort of Women are Wonderful effect, imo, and then they use consequentialism to defend their default programming that women can't be bad.
Either way, curious what the Motte thinks? Is scarfgate just salty sour pusses hating on a highly agentic women? Or are there deeper issues here?
I've read such a tip before, but with phone chargers instead of scarves. That if you're in need of a phone charger, to approach the nearest hotel lobby and tell the receptionist you left yours there, and you'll have a mountain of chargers to choose from.
I'd be impressed with her agency (far right tail for young women, who are generally incredibly passive) and find it endearing that a chick would take action to increase my comfort level instead of getting the ick from and penalizing me for my unforced error of expressing vulnerability in front of her.
However, at the same time, her acquiring the scarf like that would give me the ick—the nonchalance in handling some stranger's article of clothing and having someone she presumably cares about (e.g., me) wear it. Especially if that article of clothing is from a hotel. Do you want bedbugs? Because that's how you get bedbugs. This ick is just instinctual, but to rationalize something deeper it could also suggest that, for even a short-term relationship, we're incompatible with regard to conscientiousness, hygiene, and/or cleanliness. What next, dumpster diving if she’s or I’m hungry?
The lying and stealing or "stealing" aspect is actually secondary to me. We could have a fundamental difference in values/etiquette, as it's ingrained for me not to lie and not to take other people's belongings (especially in front of a date), even if they otherwise would have been unlikely to recover them.
On one hand, it's worrisome if a chick is so blasé about lying—if she so casually lies to a hotel receptionist in a low stakes situation, what if she's similarly down to lie to me in a higher stakes situation? On the other hand, a chick who's down to lie to others for my benefit could mean she's ride-or-die for me. Similarly, a chick who's down to take from others and give to me is based and good. Far better than the opposite, a chick who's down to take from me and give to others out of chronic pathological altruism.
Overall, things wash out in both directions, but I'd say it's a net-negative. It pains me to say it, because otherwise it'd be such a pleasant surprise for a girl to take the initiative to increase my comfort level instead of penalizing me for the gaffe of bringing it up, especially if I haven't banged her yet.
For a lost item, the lying part is weighting much heavier than the stealing part.
Now don't get me wrong, I lie. Not for profit, and generally not to people close to me, but certainly to authorities to make interactions go smoothly. If I get into a traffic stop and I am asked if I take any medication, then I could be truthful and give them a list of drugs, and hope that they will eventually figure out that these drugs do not impair the ability to drive a car. Instead, I will simply lie to their face that I do not take any medication. But I generally do not seek out situations where I will lie.
Happily lying to a receptionist for shit and giggles and because you want a scarf is a whole other ballpark. Dark triad territory.
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