site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   35013 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 28, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

16
Bottom New Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I'm trying to wrap my head around what you are saying about the last sentence, you're saying that there is one word which expresses "switching channels will get you in trouble"? Or is the "switching channels" part just implied from context in the original Russian phrasing?

There is such a word. I don't remember this anecdote, but am inferring from @JarJarJedi's telling that it's "Допереключаешься" (doperekliuchaesh'sya). I have never used this word myself, but it's reconstructable from first principles.

Russian, line some other languages, allows for easily composing words. The prefix Do (literally the connotation of getting "to" some point) means, especially in the context of the rest of the word, that further/excessive performance of this action will lead to bad outcomes; prefix pere means changing (for example, "переходить улицу" is "changing sides/crossing the street", literally cross-go); kliuch[ать] is literally "key", usually included in words like "включить/выключить" ("turn on/off"), the 'esh' indicates that it's second person singular i.e. addressed to the listener and concerns his actions, and sya turns it to passive voice (...does it though?) and stresses that the consequences will be to himself. So the literal meaning of the word is, perhaps, "You will get in trouble from all that clicking/tuning to channel after channel". And it sounds rude.

Some extra humorous effect comes from this word being similar to the much more common doviyobivaeysh'sya, which is an obscene way to say... uhhh.... «keep swaggering/fucking around/acting like you're cool shit and you'll find out», I guess. Or something.

Naturally almost any verb root can be plugged into this construction to much the same effect.

you're saying that there is one word which expresses "switching channels will get you in trouble"

Yes.

Strictly speaking, the "channels" part is implied, but since the Russian word used in this context is pretty specific to what you do with the channels, the implication is clear.

Basically, he's right except he translator added "one day" and "comrade". (an example where translations go longer and feature meanings which original didn't have)

The word is допереключаешься.

-ся is the reflective suffix/ending (offtopic: cringe spelling, compare e.g. Polish cognate is written się, more letters and diacritic, so it must be better)

-аешь is the ending for verb 2nd person singular. The future time rather than present is obtained by that complete word is a finite verb by virtue of its first prefix

ключ is the root for key/switch. Needs both prefix and ending to become a verb (some nouns don't need a prefix to become a noun, but this does).

пере- is prefix, one of many which could produce switching verbs; unlike English "switch on" Russian uses prefixes

до ???

PROFIT

I don't know much about Quechua but I think Quechua has more grammatical categories for intent and completness of information, apparently Incas liked Quechua so much so they shifted from their native language to Quechua.

Would probably be допереключаетесь, unless the man had already допереключался and is now in the KGB torture room where he is addressed more rudely and informally.

No, допереключаешься is more frequent by far margin

Thanks for the detailed breakdown! I'm still not seeing where the sense of "getting in trouble" is coming from in your explanation though.

It's coming from the "до" part. Literally, this prefix implies arrival to a destination (like доехать = to arrive from до + ехать to go or to drive). However, when used with words that do not mean literal movement, especially when combined with the reflexive suffix ся, this prefix often means "there would be bad consequences if you keep doing this" - e.g. доиграешься (от играть - to play) means if you keep playing like that (or in general, acting like that) something bad will happen (the implication is it will happen to you, though you can also say it meaning it would happen to somebody else, but still will be your fault).

So what would be the literal translation of "допереключаешься"?

The future time rather than future is obtained by that complete word is a finite verb being finite by its first prefix

What does this mean? Did you accidentally a word here?

Literally it means something like "if you keep switching [implied: the channels] there would be bad consequences for you", or maybe "keep switching and find out". It's hard to say it in English any shorter because I don't know any constructs that do the same thing in English.

No idea, my command of English isn't that good, I helped with what I could.Maybe "you continue switching [and something happens] to you"

Yes, fixed that, s/than future/than present/

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats