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PaperclipPerfector  14d ago (text post)   27086 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 30, 2025

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Is there anyone disagreeing with this? I'm only familiar with the claim that the US supports for ideological reasons, not that Israel has any leverage over the US.

That the US has a "Zionist Occupied Government (ZOG)" is a pretty common conspiracy theory. I think SS and the other local dissident right members could tell you all about it.

Do you think that means they believe Israel is literally twisting the US's arm to do it's bidding, or that they believe the US leadership holds an ideology resulting in their support of Israel even against the interests of Americans?

Do you think that means they believe Israel is literally twisting the US's arm to do it's bidding,

Yes

I only had a skim, but couldn't find the part about arm-twisting.

It's a bit of an extended discussion, but at the bottom of this comment I wrote:

The US started supporting Israel after their victory in the six-day war showcased their value as a military power in a region broadly aligned with the Soviets. By the time of the oil embargo keeping Israel on their side during the cold war felt like the right bet to decision makers in the US. You may think they were wrong, but that they thought this was the correct choice seems more plausible than that they were being controlled by a shadowy cabal who had between 67 and 73 achieved total control of the government.

To which the response was:

There is nothing shadowy about the cabal, it's blatant.

I did ask @RandomRanger a little later on to clarify his position:

I mean, maybe I'm being autistic and interpreting too literally your earlier claim that

I don't know how it's possible for the word ZOG to be problematized like it's some crazy, loopy theory when in the case of the US, it's literally true.

but again, if the position is that all US interests are subordinate to Israeli interests and have been since the mid 20th century, then Israel wouldn't face any threats at all (or at the very least, far fewer). Is what I just described your position, or have I misinterpreted it?

But received no response. He's welcome of course to jump in and make his stance on the topic clear, until then, draw your own conclusion; my interpretation is that if he doesn't think Israel is twisting the US' arm, it's only because Israel already owns the US government.

if the position is that all US interests are subordinate to Israeli interests

Israel doesn't own the US government but they have enormous influence especially in foreign policy and anything pertaining to Israel. Occasionally the US tries to do something that actually prioritizes American interests over Israel's, the Israel lobby usually nixes this in the end: the Iran deal for instance. Now the US does have huge leverage over Israel in terms of capabilities. Merely shutting off aid would be catastrophic for their military, who relies on US provided weapons, satellites, communications and USAF for air defence. I've said before that the US could annihilate Israel at will with sanctions alone, the state would quickly disintegrate.

But in terms of mental, political, lobbying power, Israel enjoys a huge advantage. The warrior can easily demolish a succubus in battle but it's irrelevant if she has her charm spell running.

I'm not dogmatic on whether it's arm-twisting or owning hearts and minds, there's a mix of both going on. Nor can I give you a date where it suddenly happened, it's not a switch that was flipped on but a gradual process peaking around the 2000s.

But something, surely, has to be off when you've got big figures like Ted Cruz going on interviews about how the Bible says God will bless those who bless Israel, curse those who curse Israel, how he got into politics aiming to be the biggest defender of Israel. Some of this is Adelson money and other Israel lobby cash/threats, some of it is weird Christianity, nevertheless it's unusual and indicates powerful influence.

Occasionally the US tries to do something that actually prioritizes American interests over Israel's, the Israel lobby usually nixes this in the end: the Iran deal for instance.

I mean, the US has never invested ground forces in taking out any military group directly opposing Israel. There are/have been so many of these I'm not sure you could just label them occasional incidences of America not prioritizing Israeli interests at this point.

Merely shutting off aid would be catastrophic for their military,

I'm not sure you understand the actual numbers involved. US annual aid to Israel is $3.8 billion, not a small number, but less than 1% of Israel's GDP. That number has gone up during the recent hostilities, but not to the extent that it would be a catastrophe for Israel to have to pay upfront.

who relies on US provided weapons, satellites, communications and USAF for air defence.

Was this last bit about the USAF some sort of typo?

I'm not dogmatic on whether it's arm-twisting or owning hearts and minds, there's a mix of both going on.

@ArjinFerman There you go.

I might be missing something, but I think this disproves your claim rather then proves it? There being a mix of both does not imply that Israel's influence rests on their ability to make the US leadership generally do something against their will.

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