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That there are some "pure" altruists in EA is not what I am picking at. The essays I reference are targeted at that very phenomenon because it is a thing some people do. Selection effects are what they are. You are making points without the knowledge of what is already been discussed on the topic. Go google "avoiding EA burnout" and you'll find a plenty of stuff on this front.
The thing I am pointing at is that comparing Soviet anything to EA is apples to hand grenades. Donors are not coerced. OpenPhil analysts are not employees of the state, and aimed at "doing the most good" insofar as they can figure that out. The failure mode that is most apt is the standard "NGO Industrial Complex" where organizations exist to exist, not to actually solve the problem in their mission statement.
I think you are empirically wrong on this. E.g., if you go to one of the most upvoted such essays you will see my comment at the top. But it's been a while. Maybe there is much that I have forgotten.
https://www.google.com/search?q=avoiding+effective+altruism+burnout
No, this really wasn't much better than posting a LMGTFY. Don't do this.
When someone obstinately denies easily checked facts what do you suggest?
(a) Let it go and disengage. (b) Provide links to specific citations and proactively provide an explanation of their relevance. (c) Consider the possibility that they are not "ignoring facts" but that you are both interpreting the same evidence in a way that caters to your own biases and that you need to actually make an argument.
You've clearly never debated a flat earther and it shows.
More seriously, the right tool for the job of "is this a pretty common thing or not" was in fact a google search showing a bunch of available examples.
It shouldn't be against the rules to succinctly provide evidence someone is full of BS. When they're denying the very existence of the evidence. When they refuse to confirm their claimed absence of that evidence. Of a pretty simple issue. Trivially demonstrated facts of matter.
Also, my link was on the tail end of a series of arguments. It wasn't just a no-context injection.
"Don't do this" ought to also apply to people who won't do the very basics of epistemic due diligence.
There are many EA thought posts on avoiding purity burnout and mental health crises. There are not very many AC units in Europe. Anyone arguing otherwise is just failing very basic standards of reason.
Wrong.
If a flat earther showed up here, you'd be required to follow the same rules.
I'm telling you what your available options are here. Not everywhere else on the Internet, but here.
Mods do not judge the quality of arguments here. People can make bad arguments. You may point out why they're bad.
If you think the argument is so bad as to not be worth the effort, you may choose not to reply.
Those are your options.
I feel obligated to point out that obviously you do. The rules are full of guidance about specific qualities of arguments. Perhaps you mean to say that the mods aim to evaluate meta argument qualities, not object level.
So, actually, at the risk of being egregiously obnoxious, in the context of that comment chain, which rule(s) exactly did I break? Actually, why don't all mod warnings come with a citation? That's standard in many a Reddit forum. Don't make us guess.
Is it, by definition, always low effort to provide a link for which the context has been established and/or is self-evident? Since this platform does not allow me to provide a screenshot, a link is actually a pretty relevant counterargument for the claim that was being contested.
Would I have been fine if I had merely had a preamble of something like: "If you click on this hyperlink to a google search, as I previously recommended you conduct to evaluate the evidence for yourself, you will be able to see a fair number of posts on the topic you claim does not really get covered in EA circles."
Not very charitable of you regarding my reading comprehension, I must say. I've only been participating since the olden Reddit days. Never even been banned. Perhaps it was only the soft bigoty of low expectations.
God bless the Motte. Mods for, of, and by the people.
EDIT: How could I forget. Is it not implicit in the rules and the epistemic heritage of this forum, the rationality sphere and SSC, that basic norms of logic and reason and evidence are expected? A basic epistemic methodological sanity baseline. Clearly the rules indicate awareness of such concepts, but perhaps they are taken as omissible.
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Not the greatest comment for two reasons. First, it’s too snarky by half. Second, my word, that’s a lot of unnecessary tracking info. In case you don’t know, you could have deleted everything after the first “&” and been fine.
I could have made it worse and use the ol' LMGTFY.
There are some people in this conversation on various topics, like air conditioning units in Europe, that seemingly want to endlessly debate a relatively minor point that could be resolved with a quick google search and it baffles me.
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People have been killed in the name of EA ideas. One can claim that this was the work of the criminal and mentally ill (and be right), but that's also what the Marxists say about their bad apples.
I, for one, think that if you gave soviet levels of power to the shrimp welfare people, they would be very unwise with it. I don't think that's an unreasonable view.
Soviet levels of power were not granted by God of Thought Experiments from above, they were achieved by mobilizing large numbers of people to violence with arguments such as "this guy over here is better off than you - it was at your expense, go lynch the kulak". I do not think shrimp welfare is as persuasive an argument.
I think you're vastly underrating the earnestness and good will of communists. People very rarely start with murderous intent. That tends to proceed from the grinding of relatively benign dictums against the realities of power.
Moreover, please don't do the whole "it's just a few kooks on college campuses", one loses use of that argument after their first SBF. You and I are not beyond lynching kulaks, there is just a precarious set of incentives that allows us to maintain the moral rectitude to not do so. And I'm arguing that most EA people have, as part of their utilitarian construction, jettisoned important parts of those incentives.
To wit, I recommend rule utilitarianism and a higher degree of humility before history and the human condition.
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Such as? If we're referring to the Ziz stuff then well that's not going to cut it for me in that they were not part of "EA" in any meaningful sense for a long time before the real insanity began.
But also, plenty of people have been killed in the name of classic liberal ideas.
Probably! I can't get over that Classic Environmentalism is anti-interventionist to the point some want humanity to disappear, and then some EA types are so interventionist they want to basically eliminate nature because of the inherent suffering.
In the light of your own answer, what is the ideological component in EA that would prevent interventionist types, in principle, from being soviet tier hand grenades? I don't see it. I see the same type of unbounded consequentialism that can allow people to engage in the same sort of evil in the name of ultimate good.
EA has no provision against people thinking of themselves as bringing about a utopia, and that makes it a dangerous philosophy. And this is why Ziz killed people and SBF defrauded millions.
Marx was once a benign economics nerd too.
Well, there is no one "EA"; but broadly speaking EA exists within the liberal democratic view of human rights. So "unbounded consequentialism" isn't actually on the menu for policy interventions.
I'm personally a rule utilitarian / classic liberal, so I care about specific classic (negative) human rights and fostering material progress. So I like a lot of what EA is all about, but I have my differences. I do not like philosophical ignorant veils and ponds of kids, for example. In terms of rhetorical utility though, I very much enjoy using EA as a hammer to bludgeon progressives/leftists with.
I do not think it is fair to directly fault EA at large for Ziz and SBF. In the former case, they literally disavowed the individual and their ideas. In the latter case, they were too trusting (I just assume all crypto is a scam by default) and deserve some demerits for that, but SBF also fooled a great many worldly financial types outside of EA.
Again, this is an extremely broad criticism that applies to many religions and ideologies.
What's a "human right"? I'm not asking what you think, you clearly believe in some utilitarian formulation of natural law, likely in the style of J.S. Mill. That has boundaries I'm well familiar with.
I'm asking what most EA people believe.
Because in my experience it's a lot less solid than what you have in mind, generally more aligned to Rawls than Mill and almost entirely without bounds.
I do not believe that Effective Altruists would oppose vaccine mandates categorically under grounds of bodily autonomy, for instance.
I understand those as fair arguments, but they are the same fair arguments Khrushchev made for Stalin and that Marx made for Guesde. We are responsible for what we bring into the world, the purpose of a system is what it does, etc.
Of course. And I denounce them all as capable of the same horrors.
I think the typical EA isn't that far off of the typical Western liberal/progressive tradition in terms of their views on human rights?
I'm sure someone somewhere has done polling on this.
Ah well, even my own libertarian instincts allow exceptions for bodily autonomy violations under crisis conditions. No, Covid-19 didn't meet that threshold, but plenty of historic plagues would if we had a modern outbreak. The optimal level of coercion is not zero.
I very much do not think those are very similar things in kind or scale. To my knowledge, no one in EA leadership was encouraging or validating Ziz or SBF with awareness of their actual behavior/intent and denounced it all upon discovery. Any kind of interesting new ideological movement that grows is at risk of attracting crazies and grifters; what matters is how that's handled and I think at worst EA was fooled by SBF like many others.
I suppose one can commit to a very, very strong stance on individualism. Are you an anarcho-capitalist?
Sure, but principles that don't demand you sacrifice anything for them can hardly be deemed limiting principles. I'm sure you can do the work of designing those properly, but I don't really see that work being done and that doesn't bode well.
I'll commend Scott (or at least his past self) for doing some of that work. But I don't think it was anywhere near close enough.
Marx specifically disavowed Guesde and called himself "not a marxist". That's my point. Dr Frankenstein isn't absolved of the responsibility of building his Golem by casting it out.
No, I don't see anarchy as a realistic proposition. I guess I'm a paleo-liberal at this point or something to that effect.
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anything unbounded has the same problem
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