This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I've been thinking about why some people are terrified of Trump while others, like me, are more indifferent. I mostly tune out Trump news because I assume much of it involves scare tactics or misleading framing by his detractors. When my wife brings up concerns about his supposedly authoritarian actions, my general response is that if what he's doing is illegal, the governmental process will handle it - and if it's legal, then that's how the system is supposed to work. I have faith that our institutions have the checks and balances to deal with any presidential overreach appropriately.
This reminded me of a mirror situation during 2020-2021 with the BLM movement, where our positions were reversed. I was deeply concerned about social media mobs pressuring corporations, governments, and individuals to conform under threat of job loss, boycotts, and riots, while my wife thought these social pressures were justified and would naturally self-correct if they went too far. The key difference I see is that the government has built-in checks and balances designed to prevent abuse of power, while social movements and mob pressure operate without those same institutional restraints. It seems like we each trust different institutional mechanisms, but I can't help but think that formal governmental processes with built-in restraints are more reliable than grassroots social pressure that operates without those same safeguards. Furthermore, the media seems incentivized to amplify fear about Trump but not about grassroots social movements - Trump generates clicks and outrage regardless of which side you're on, while criticizing social movements risks alienating the platforms' own user base and advertiser-friendly demographics.
Eh fuck it.
Since there doesn’t seem to be any other people who are actually “terrified by Trump” answering (that is to say, leftists) aside from some light interjections by @Skibboleth, I suppose I ought to chime in and try to provide some actual responses, instead of just relying on admirable-but-inaccurate “steelmans” from more modal right-wingers who are at least trying to understand the screen the “other side” is watching
…Or worse, less-charitable right-wingers who neither understand the perspective of us Others nor want to understand, who instead just chalk it all up to pure TDS.
———
Honestly, though, you pretty much answer your own question in your opening paragraph;
My very first comment on this site -the whole reason I was inspired to create this account and bother screaming into the void here to begin with- has to do with the fact that, y’know, a lot of us TDS-rotted leftoids actually believe in the ‘scare tactics’ and ‘misinformation’ that the conventional wisdom around here holds to be mere anti-Trump propaganda.
Believe it or not, a lot of the time people actually do believe in what they say they do.
Trump is openly, proudly purging the government of anyone willing and able to disagree with him. I do not share your optimistic read on the situation. In other words,
Well I don’t.
The fact that the administration has, in the past few months, been hard at work trying to bypass, eliminate, and ignore those built-in restraints gives me a very different read on the situation.
However, it’s the fact that the Republican half of the government (and at least a third of the population) is either doing nothing to stop it, or even actively cheer it on, that really causes me to despair over the situation.
Nothing scares the left like the thought of the right doing politics to them the way they do it to the right. That's really the fear. That all these corrupt and undemocratic mechanisms the left uses to exploit their dominance in media, bureaucracy and academia to electoral effect might be used against them.
Charge the leading presidential candidate with a hundred felonies over some bullshit? Hope your mortgage applications were all in order!
"Onoes, muh norms and civility!"
I don't like Trump much, but my dearest hope is that he does exactly everything the left has done to him by the time he's out of office. Two wrongs don't make a right, but they do make it fair, and that's as close as politics gets to "right".
I can't remember which historian it was, but I remember reading a book excerpt wherein a historian, in analyzing "fascist tactics" noted that every tactic the Italian Fascists, the Nazis, etc. used had been developed and used first by Communists and other leftists, and thus, not only are there not so much "fascist tactics" as "tactics that become fascist when adopted by the Right from the Left", but that "Fascism" can pretty much be defined as "when the Right starts using Left's own more-effective tactics to use against the Left" (and thus, as a good opponent of "fascism," he then exhorts that we must ensure the Right remains forbidden from using the Left's best tactics.)
I honestly wish you could remember what historian that was.
I could always use another book to add to my 'to read' pile.
I'm AI skeptical than most around here, but must admit that chatGPT is becoming a damn good search engine:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_fascism
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link