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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   31035 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 16, 2023

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A poster here recommended a book to us all called “Introduction to Christianity”, by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (who would go on to become Pope Benedict XVI) a few weeks ago. I recently got a copy of it.

I wanted to share with you all the first few paragraphs from the book, because I found them very interesting:

Anyone who tries today to talk about the question of Christian faith in the presence of people who are not thoroughly at home with ecclesiastical language and thought (whether by vocation or by convention) soon comes to sense the alien -and alienating- nature of such an enterprise. He will probably soon have the feeling that his position is only too well summed up in Kierkegaard's famous story of the clown and the burning village, an allegory taken up again recently by Harvey Cox in his book The Secular City. According to this story, a traveling circus in Denmark caught fire. The manager thereupon sent the clown, who was already dressed and made up for the performance, into the neighboring village to fetch help, especially as there was a danger that the fire would spread across the fields of dry stubble and engulf the village itself. The clown hurried into the village and requested the inhabitants to come as quickly as possible to the blazing circus and help to put the fire out. But the villagers took the clown's shouts simply for an excellent piece of advertising, meant to attract as many people as possible to the performance; they applauded the clown and laughed till they cried.

The clown felt more like weeping than laughing; he tried in vain to get people to be serious, to make it clear to them that this was no stunt, that he was not pretending but was in bitter earnest, that there really was a fire. His supplications only increased the laughter; people thought he was playing his part splendidly--until finally the fire did engulf the village; it was too late for help, and both circus and village were burned to the ground.

I’m sure we’ve all felt like that clown at some point or another. Especially with regards to ideas like “just kids on college campuses”.

Here’s a quote, this one from Saint Anthony The Great, one of The Desert Fathers (Early Christian precursors to Christian monks who lived in Egypt in about 300AD).

“A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, ‘You are mad; you are not like us.’”

Anyway I think the relevance to the culture war is obvious here, and could be taken any of many directions. I just read this today and wanted to share. To pull on one culture war thread (perhaps one of the oldest culture war) it is profoundly depressing to me that these parts of our history, especially the history of The Catholic Church, seem to be suppressed or at the very least ignore in modern western society.

deleted

Wait, who recommended the book? How'd I miss this?

Hi, it's me!

https://www.themotte.org/post/253/culture-war-roundup-for-the-week/48121?context=8#context

I’m on mobile, but can try to explain what I mean.

I have a lot of lefty new age, yoga instructing, Bali visiting, “I’m spiritual but not religious” saying, “Buddhism is more of a philosophy” claiming friends.

These people are hungry for something. The age and mysticism of stuff like their misunderstanding of eastern philosophy, is attractive to them because it seems to carry so much weight.

Meanwhile in almost every single town or neighborhood in America, there is a Catholic Church. The church has 2000 years of philosophy to pull on, as well as the most moving art that humanity has ever produced. People associate “meditation” with eastern philosophy, not knowing that their is an equally old tradition of meditation and mindfulness happening in that goofy building with the cross in it.

Not only is the spirituality, the history, the art, the philosophy, etc all there, but all of that philosophy and tradition is what we used to build the modern world. That Church is welcoming people to come into it ever day, or at least every Sunday, and people just…don’t. They don’t even bother to look.

I’m irritated that we have allowed Catholicism to become primarily associated with goofy people in hats, abusive priests, and ugly boring buildings. Im basically just retreading the frustration people have with Vatican 2.

The second thing is that my heart breaks for Protestants. The people attending these awful mega churches and weird youth group pastor things are being deprived of something I think is truly beautiful, and they’re essentially being taken advantage of by people who have a 500 year old hatred of the church. I think Protestants are more than happy to simply lie about Catholicism to maintain this grudge.

To be sure, many Protestants are not like this. But such language and such logic permeates the Protestant approach towards Catholicism.

Eh. It's still common in certain evangelical branches, but the Jack Chick brand of Protestantism is not really mainstream anymore.

In that sense I do not begrudge the Protestants their complaints at all. Had you posted something along the lines of SSCReader's reply originally, praising Protestantism over Catholicism,

Just to point out I am an atheist, I was more amused by the (from my point of view) lack of introspection to consider how they might criticize the Catholic church, given they were founded specifically because it was felt the Catholic Church was betraying the values of Christianity (from their point of view of course).

My own response as an atheist would be something like:

  1. Protestants are I think correct to say that the Catholic Church as is and as it was would likely be condemned by Jesus as portrayed in the bible. It seems way too interested in its own survival, power and wealth than the humble values Jesus espoused. The Pope of Christ's church should not be living in a palace (though Protestant sects are also often living in glass houses in this respect).

  2. Protestants are I think incorrect to say that belief is the only gateway to God, a plain reading of what Jesus says would I think endorse the idea that good works have to be at least part of your journey to Christ.

  3. Some sects of Protestantism founded in large part because of the financial corruption of the Catholic church reinvented said corruption (Mega-churches and the like) pretty quickly.

  4. You're (edit - as in Catholicism and Protestantism) both (from my point of view) basically arguing which version of a fairy tale is more accurate when even if the fairy tale itself should be believed, the answer appears to be, both are wrong and that Christ espouses a much more personal, humble and pure version of Christianity than either Catholicism or mainline Protestantism actually perform in practice. Maybe the Quakers are close?

  5. But also the fairy tale is not true, so the best option is simply take the moral lessons said tale can impart without actually believing in witches in gingerbread houses or talking wolves or magic mirrors.

  6. But also people are really bad at being able to do that, so it's probably fine to leave them to believe whatever supernatural bits they want since it does seem to help them live their lives whether Catholic or Protestant, simply reeling them in when they try to drag people into wars or whatever (which is to be clear in no way limited to religion, ideologies also should be reeled in at similar points, supernatural or not).

When I saw this, I was finally driven to create an account.

In response to 1 of 3

As a Protestant myself, it is certainly true that many Protestants don't think about church history, but I think it is quite the exaggeration to characterize all Protestants as "deeply ignorant," and I imagine you would object if I characterized you that way. But I recognize that this was in response to claims that Protestants are lying, though, so I'll take that as much less polemic and more charitable than I would otherwise be inclined.

Regarding faith and works, the reasoning behind the concern here is the belief that God's standards in his law are high, requiring that we follow it, not just some good enough intent. There's no "good enough" amount of works aside from actually following the whole law (and numerous scripture passages can back this up). And so, we can't be saved by being good enough by our own works, even post-conversion. That isn't to say that our works should be ignored or thought irrelevant, indeed, they ought to accompany faith, and will do so. We should do them! But they are not the thing—rather, that is Christ's works—upon which our acceptance before God rests.

I think the claim about the 100 AD church is inaccurate. Yes, things probably are not identical to modern Protestantism—the scriptures wouldn't be able to be in everybody's pockets, for one rather obvious thing—but neither would they be identical to modern Roman Catholicism. There's good reason to think, for instance, that bishops (and hence popes, as well) weren't a thing distinct from presbyters/elders (whence the word priest comes) at that point. That is not the only addition over the years, but I think that that is one that strikes fairly near the heart of the claims of papal authority and ancientness, and being the church that's like the early church. I do not think this is some odd claim; if you read the reformers, they frequently cite the church fathers as in agreement with them, though by no means was every father in agreement in every instance.

I'd be interested in whatever primary texts you find especially compelling.

In response to 2 of 3

Regarding the bible, I don't think that that's accurate. The Council of Rome was no ecumenical council. It was a regional council, and so would presumably not be part of the extraordinary magisterium, or so I understand. To get there, you would either need to wait nearly a thousand years until the Council of Florence, or maybe you could make an argument that some of the later councils (like the Second Council of Nicea, in the ninth century), would, in its accepting other non-ecumenical councils, meant to include this one in such a way that it includes the scriptural list. (There are also difficulties concerning whether the books of Esdras are referring to the same ones as in the Tridentine canon). You claimed that they compiled scripture, which, thankfully, does not go so far as claiming that they made scripture scripture, as there is some pretty clear biblical evidence that parts of the New Testament were referred to as scriptures in the works of Paul and Peter.

I cannot readily assault arguments for the beauty of or your liking the various things that you have talked about, unlike if you were arguing for the truth of them. But as something of an iconoclast, I'd just want to point out that God hasn't commanded us to make such things, indeed, if anything, he has repeatedly commanded the opposite, so let us not be wiser than God, but hold fast to what he has said to do, and rejoice in the beauty contained in the word and sacrament.

What is your objection to the protestant teaching of justification?

I agree with the third section.

Separate thoughts

I think, in some circles, Protestantism gets something of a bad rap. Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism often attract people, due to their seeming pretty and feeling old, while Protestantism has to subsist on the teachings of the scriptures. In secular circles, I think that might be true to an even greater extent, because they often will still see those features—prettiness and oldness—as appealing to some extent, and in their eyes, even if they seem antiquated, something we've grown out of, there's still something to them. They might still like the vibes. But Protestantism, where there is much less of that, there are still the (seemingly) distasteful parts—Christianity's teachings on sex, among other things, and still all those teachings that the Christians have to believe, commitments demanded, and so on, but less ritual and experiences and feelings. Protestantism doesn't have to deal with the (unfair) pedophilia reputation, though.

But the majority of you on themotte, I believe, are atheists, so I'm sure you all would have a better account of your perceptions of Christianity than I am able to give.

Our local Orthodox church has, for some time, seen a number of fervent converts (mostly, not entirely, young women) from New Age and "Eastern" (Buddhist etc.) traditions. Some of my friends have dealt with them quite a bit and, even though those friends are quite a bit more conservative than me, are finding their catechumen's fervor a bit offputting. I've heard that there have been such recent movements otherwhere (not only to Orthodox churches), either, though probably not in demographically measurable amounts.

Since Vatican II, the Church has been actively refusing to provide what those people (and many more) seek, and instead has been busy trying to appear "modern" and failing at it. No doubt most people seeking to get in touch with the transcendental don't even consider going to a church. Particularly in the US, where the building itself looks nothing like a church.

The second thing is that my heart breaks for Protestants. The people attending these awful mega churches and weird youth group pastor things are being deprived of something I think is truly beautiful, and they’re essentially being taken advantage of by people who have a 500 year old hatred of the church. I think Protestants are more than happy to simply lie about Catholicism to maintain this grudge.

Ahh, it's like being back home in Northern Ireland. Shall we skip the bombings and knee-cappings and just point out that Protestants might say something like:

The people attending these awful ostentatious churches and weird blood drinking things are being deprived of something I think is truly beautiful, and they’re essentially being taken advantage of by people who have a 500 year old hatred of the uncorrupted church. I think Catholics are more than happy to simply lie about Protestantism to maintain this grudge.

And we say the left has it bad with internal purity spirals!

"Purity spiral" means taking more and more extreme positions. I don't see how you can accuse the Catholic church of doing so, unless you are atracking them from the right.

The Protestant church formed (arguably) due to issues with indulgences and the like. It split from the Catholic church. Then they split into multiple different sects.

They are the result of a purity spiral within Catholicism. Martin Luther could not tolerate what he saw to be as the perversion of the Church.

A purity spiral is where intolerance and zealousess grow until elements of the group turn on each other. The various splits within Christianity are nearly the Ur-example i would say.

The second thing is that my heart breaks for Protestants. The people attending these awful mega churches and weird youth group pastor things are being deprived of something I think is truly beautiful, and they’re essentially being taken advantage of by people who have a 500 year old hatred of the church. I think Protestants are more than happy to simply lie about Catholicism to maintain this grudge.

I have to say that my least favourite thing about the religious is the capacity of some to be so incredibly condescending and to not even have the common decency to be aware of how insulting they're being.

I am not religious, but I do come from what was historically a very protestant culture (with its own national bent on how a religion "should" be, as is typical) and to me I must say that I see very little difference between the american corporate protestants and the catholics. Both are overly obsessed with elaborate ceremony, pomp and spectacle, with the greatest difference between the two being that one is simply crass and the other is vulgarly ostentatious. I could also say that both are essentially scams designed to extract money and influence from large bodies of people eager to find meaning and a greater understanding of what it's all about.

I generally do not voice these opinions unprompted in the same way that I am not given to walking up to people in the street and slapping them in the face without provocation. I assume that most people have reasons for making the decisions they do and are operating off of different information than I am.

The people attending these awful mega churches and weird youth group pastor things

Are probably attending for the same reasons you would attend whatever weird things catholics do, because they're presumably getting something out of it.

I think Protestants are more than happy to simply lie about Catholicism to maintain this grudge.

This sentence alone is so incredibly arrogant that it makes my head hurt just processing it. The idea that protestants must collectively deceive each other about how totally awesome and right catholicism is just because they're bitter about.... something? I have to say that in my experience, there is no collective grudge among protestants against catholics, if anything it is entirely the other way around. I've lived in countries with large protestant communities my whole life, never spent any serious amount of time in catholic countries or communities and the only place I've ever heard anyone talk about the split between catholics and protestants was from catholics. Hell, I've heard significantly more about protestants from catholics than I have from protestants.

I have to say that in my experience, there is no collective grudge among protestants against catholics, if anything it is entirely the other way around. I've lived in countries with large protestant communities my whole life

Not that there is any significant collective grudge in any case, but if you had lived in a Catholic majority country you would have met protestants with quite an obsession against the Catholic Church. So it's probably the resentment of being the minority in both cases.

Heh, you know when I read the OP I figured it must've been you who recommended the book. Now I'm also curious who it was.

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