This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Unrelated to Gaza, biker gangs are interesting since they operate as franchises that also expand to non-American contexts, leading to cases like the Nordic Biker War between the Swedish/Finnish branches of Hells Angels and Bandidos, two 1% gangs that originate in the US. These also attract or are in some cases dominated by immigrants from outside of Europe, such as in the notorious case of Satudarah, a gang that has caused news in several European countries (I had actually assumed it was Swedish before opening up the Wikipedia page since I had mostly encountered news about the Swedish chapter).
It's interesting that non-Americans and even non-Westerners interested in joining the criminal lifestyle would so often choose a format that is, as said, so very specifically American, both historically and regarding cultural signifiers. It's a problem for the concept of integration that we now have transnational criminal gangs and indeed criminal subcultures that offer one potential model of integration... just integration into something that is not beneficial to the host socities.
A couple lines I cut mentioned this. As an American, the aesthetic does feel like it should be out of place in the Netherlands (Satudarah), but clearly somewhere like the Mongolian Steppe is natural. I have no idea if Mongolian riders share criminal aspects. Australia also shares (or shared) a comparable individualist frontier spirit and history, along with a similar fascination with bushwhacker outlaws, that it also seems a natural candidate for outlaw bikie gangs.
I just read a few (extremely boring) books for a social studies exam, and one thing that I still manage to remember from them is a claim, in a section mentioning the analysis of subcultures, that motorcycle gangs can be seen as a replication of certain elements of industrial working class existence, like the machinery, the noise, the metal surfaces of the bike etc. resembling a factory and the general idea of conquest of nature, which would of course also apply to Western European industrial working class descendents.
Nordic countries also share wide open spaces in the Northern regions, apart from Denmark.
See, Finns on bikes seems appropriate. Swedes? Ehhh...
Neat. I am only partially surprised this connection has been made. You could also tie in the post-war origins that @HereAndGone provided context for above. The American proletariat returned home from the war to replace the women in manufacturing who they perceived as having emasculating their manhood. Without any other way to ease their suppressed class consciousness or account for their male insecurity they sought out to create alternative recreational hobbies with an industrial identity...
I offer an alternative:
Machine go brrhuum-brrhuum-brrhuum and chuugha-chuugha-chuuugha-chuuugha and vvvvvvrrrRRRRRrrrroooooom. Boy like machine. Boy ride machine. Machine go fast.
Yeah, I never watched Sons of Anarchy when this was the big new hit TV show, but didn't the motorcycle club in that start off that very way? Vets back from the war (Vietnam in this case) found a motorcycle club, and gradually over the years it becomes a criminal outfit.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I mean American red tribe culture is globally very competitive, especially among non-elites, more broadly. BBQ tastes good, guns and pickup trucks are cool, jeans are real practical and comfortable, country music is easy to inculturate and you can dance to it, etc. That comes with the good, thé bad, and the ugly.
Jeans are absolutely not “American red tribe culture.” They were invented by two Jewish immigrants in San Francisco, and popularized as casual wear by urban greasers in the 1950s and 1960s.
This is only true if you strip it of much of the sociocultural content that was central to country music for much of its existence. The oeuvre of Conway Twitty is not global dance music. Country can only be made into a global commodity by converting it into “generically lower-middle-class music with aspirationally-American characteristics.”
Conway "first, pop hits in the '50s" Twitty? I mean sure he later made a country turn but it's ooooooonly maaaaaaaaaake believe! :D (Sorry, it's just too apropos; I know he did actually always want to be country, etc.)
More options
Context Copy link
I mean, have you heard modern country in its heartland? French, Afrikaans, irish, etc country music is truer to form than that.
is often a continuation of hair metal: https://youtube.com/watch?v=tB4049jsY7U?si=eJOU4o5nJyC1OvwX but it's not too hard to find stuff truer to form: https://youtube.com/watch?v=9CZ5X-c8Lng?si=cMSqzbs4447DyCfc or https://youtube.com/watch?v=Ew43GEJaj3A?si=GOz3kVfo9eqDDXMa
Already in the 80s, power ballads made this move. Many Skid Row songs sound like bluegrass with distortion https://youtube.com/watch?v=2pkpsxEyi-k?si=C5ANtceRZXBWn1Nm or Poison and Cinderella playing "the blues" https://youtube.com/watch?v=D7wdLAM1yjc?si=7PsmZOLhKvbzShft
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link