site banner
PaperclipPerfector  2mo ago (text post)   34234 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 15, 2025

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

4
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I can talk about the true reasons in polite society: it undercuts wages and makes an underclass of workers who effectively cannot leave their jobs. It is an attack on the wages of a subset of professional workers.

The solution to that problem is to allow H-1B workers to shift employers after say 1-2 years which is how Canada and Australia do it with their permanent residence process, plus put a penalty on the employer if a worker they sponsor leaves a job with them to go elsewhere (like for example restricting them from sponsoring further workers in the short term) to ensure they provide good enough conditions that migrant workers don't want to leave them.

Why would Trump’s constituents, and the wider voting public, want this when they can just opt for the simpler solution and turn off the tap?

Why would you prefer a total overhaul of American labor law and work culture instead of restricting a program that’s very unpopular with the American public?

I think increasingly, day by day, it’s becoming rather easy to state the preferences of the Trump base and the American voter more broadly in polite society, and it’s increasingly difficult for the people who oppose it who vocalize their opposition without revealing hidden preferences.

Because turning off the tap doesn't prevent shitty employers from being shitty directly, while introducing proper employment protections and letting migrant workers switch jobs by right does this. Why go for the roundabout way where your stated preferred policy aims may be reified as a second order consequence when you can just legislate for it directly?

Because shitty employers access to a virtually unlimited pool of willing foreign serfs enables much of the shitty behavior in the first place, and it’s a much simpler and direct way to put upward pressure on employment conditions by siloing off the pool of potential ‘employees’ that would accept them in the first place.

Cutting the Gordian knot is always preferable to some theoretical future action that is so complicated and conditional its chance of success is slim.

The perfect being the enemy of the good and whatnot.

I’ll state again; the H1B program and its consequences are uniquely unpopular with the Trump base and broadly unpopular in the American voting public, therefore this attack on it seems very politic and straightforward. Is there some special reason you’re defending it?

As an American, I’m puzzled as to why I should emulate European employment practices that have resulted in such a weak economy and society rather than seek to return to the health and dynamism of the American past? Or construct a uniquely American future based on our own values?

return to the health and dynamism of the American past

That's right. Bring Ellis Island back. As long as someone is not a felon, bigamist or anarchist and has a ticket to their ultimate destination and $1780 dollars per person, let them come and work without recourse to public funds.

and $1780 dollars per person

Was that when every $20 was backed by an ounce of gold?

No idea, I used the inflation-adjusted value of $50 in 1892.

Based on gold instead of CPI, that would be about $10,000. About the same as a coyote would supposedly charge for a Central American, except the immigrant gets to keep the money.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats