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I'm writing this off the cuff after sitting through a particularly tedious lunch conversation and having the feeling that there's a culture war angle here.
The conversation was basically dominated by two people excitedly trading drawn out and inane stories from their personal lives while the rest of the group occasionally tried making little interjections. If one person told a story the other related to, the other person had to quickly follow with their almost exact same story from their own life, start to finish with the same inane outcome, instead of saying something like "that happened to me too" and letting someone else talk.
I think there's a missing personality trait that I thought was conscientiousness, but it turns out that means something different (being organized and careful). The trait I am thinking of is more like "conscious awareness of reality," which is like, can you tell how your behavior is interacting with the people around you, do you work with theories of mind, are you able to weigh your thoughts and feelings and choose what to say next, etc.
Maybe this all boils down to rising autism numbers but I feel like this is something that is supposed to be learned, and I would hope that if you haven't learned this by the time you are an adult there is something wrong with you. Instead it seems to be almost the default human condition to anxiously spit up each little itemized story you've accumulated that is interesting only to you, or seal-clap when others do so, when instead you could be doing something interesting like asking open ended questions to the group because I feel like I encounter this constantly.
My gut feeling on this is that it's not just a kind of autism style drug or biological induced disease, it's more a symptom of cultural decay, and seems more like we have bad values -> we get worse people type of movement over time. And I feel like it could be a generally self-reinforcing thing where people are getting less "nutrition" from their conversations with others, therefore they spend more time alone, conversational skills decay, etc.
So this is a bit of a rant but maybe someone here has thoughts to debate or add onto this?
I'll try a charitable steel man of the other side. Note, first, that I totally get what you're saying and 100% agree.
But, we also have to remember that the Motte is a community of Turbo Autists who like weird shit and want to talk about things. That's fucking fucked up, man.
But, anyways. The steelman that I can think of is something like the following; Small talk, which is most of conversation, isn't about the transmission of information at all. We already know this. But it is also not about the direct fellow feeling and a sense of connection. It is about the indirect conveyance that both parties "get" the other party and so can establish rapport, comfort, then trust and only after all of this will both parties maybe mutually agree to get into "deeper" conversations.
It's signalling all the way down, sure, but, recognizing this, it let's you be a better conversationalist.
Let's use an example. At one of my regular bars there's a woman, Lauren (not her real name). Lauren will give you a blow by blow of her day every time she sees you. She went to the store, gee prices are high!, in the parking lot, on the way out, a guy was driving aggressively and nearly slammed right into me! God, idiots in cars, right?!. I'll stop recounting the details here as I am sure this is already giving many people PTSD flashbacks to inescapable hour long conversations like this.
I don't care about Lauren's day. But I do care about Lauren. Through multiple interactions, I've come to find that Lauren is what I would call a basically good person (BGP). She hasn't ever thought deeply about a values system, metaphysics, or a general philosophy of life. But she takes care of her aging mother and is nice to people in that normie kind of way. Lauren's never going to be a close friend, but I wish her well.
So I make small talk with her. It's easy because I'm not really trying. When Lauren says, "Idiots in cars, right?!" I don't have to think of a Motte level reply. I say, "They seem to be everywhere" or "Imagine if everyone had to take driving tests once a year!" or, simply, "Oh, I know what you mean." (interestingly, a lot of the comments in this thread began with some version of that last one. Hmm).
And these little comments make Lauren "feel heard" as the kids say. Really, it means that Lauren feels like I care about her to some extent. Because I do. And I demonstrate that by following her flow of the conversation. If I didn't care about Lauren, I'd do something like adjust my fedora and state, "Akshually, the rate of accidents has been declining at 3.5% for two years now and ..." Which would demonstrate that I'm valuing pedantic "accuracy" above the early stages of casual, reciprocal comfort in a social setting. Or, I'd start replying with monosyllables and would reduce eye contact, and would shift my body position away from her, which would indicate I don't care about her at all.
But it's so hard to listen to! The inanity of it! Yes, I agree. So don't listen. Stop putting yourself through that. It's amazing how much people cue one another for reaction points. Big hang gestures and facial gestures, emphatic rises in volume, pregnant pauses and so forth. A lot of it is non-verbal, you just have to kind of watch their expression. And then there are, of course, the literal verbal cues; "Know what I am saying?", "Right?!" (appended anywhere), "Can you believe it?", "And I was like whhaaatt" and all of the unlimited rest of them. These are the weird conversational detritus that people accumulate over the years. They're space fillers, to be sure, but they're prompts; "This is the part, now, where I want you to emote with me so I can gauge if you "get" me." It is quite literally the same as waiting for the big green arrow to show up and click on it to acknowledge that the green arrow has shown up.
A quick side note: In one of my capital-N noticings, I've seen that one of the hallmarks of urban African-American language patterns is the near constant injection of "Know what I mean?" or, more colloquially, "Know what I'm saying" at the end of sentences. To me, this reflects a profound sense of interpersonal insecurity that can only be remedied by constantly checking in with the other person to re-confirm their general empathy.
Returning to the main topic, the failure mode of small talk isn't that it's uninteresting and boring. That's a feature, not a big. It's low effort for a reason, so that people can spend more time evaluating one another and signalling their reciprocal positive intent. When we get into those warm, sticky "deep conversations" (that definitely aren't mental masturbation) they flow so easily because we're actually 100% into them because it's safe to do so. We've already checked all of the comfort and safety boxes with the interlocutor so we don't have to spend that cognitive overload evaluating them. The structure of some of the best conversations I've had have been nothing more than these exact kind of dueling monologues you described. They just happened to occur with people I really trusted on topics that we shared a common interest in because we had discovered the shared interest via small talk.
So, all of this Steel manning is to say that I don't think what you saw is necessarily indicative of the Collapse Of Western Culture. I think it's people in a technology laden world doing their best to do what they've always done in conversation; fellow feeling, establish rapport, building relationships. That it is grating on you (and, frankly, most of us on the Motte) is to make a category error; you're looking for a conversation when, in fact, you're in the middle of a verbal game of Emote-With-Me.
Great post, I just want to add that this is usually a consequence of growing up in a close proximity to violence - if a poorly told joke can get you killed, you telegraph everything.
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I hear what you're saying, and yes I recognize irony in saying that given the capital-N noticing in the following paragraph. My Lauren is named Katie but it is the same vibe, the same relationship, and I do really wish her well.
As a contrast I would like to tell a story about someone I used to know, Alex (also not their real name). Alex was a good respectable kid, from a good respectable family, attending a very respectable school. We had a lot in common, similar interests, similar hobbies, we were both aspiring writers, and we were both studying the law. Naturally we became friends.
The story starts with Alex's childhood friend Ben (again not his real name) Like Alex, Ben was a good respectable kid, from a good respectable family, attending a very respectable school, and looking forward to a good respectable career. Both Alex and Ben were very active on sites like 4-chan, one of my first encounters with Ben was a discussion with him and Alex of a then ongoing psy-op to convince people that the "ok sign" was a white-nationalist dog whistle. The two of them thought it was hilarious that they had helped get some truck-driver fired over it. My response was to tell both of them that I thought it was kind of fucked-up that someone's livelihood was being disrupted because some college kids in another state thought it would be fun to do a bit of trolling. "Lighten up and grow a sense of humor" Ben told me. It was through this interaction and others like it that that I came to understand that Ben had a very "flexible" approach to morality, and as funny, charming, and well-read as he might be, he was also callous and cruel. He was not, as you put it, "a basically good person (BGP)".
Sometime after we had all graduated, Alex asked me if I would act as a reference for Ben. I declined In part because I did not think that Ben was a BGP and in part because I had plans to run for office was increasingly conscious of who I wanted my name to be associated with. I could tell that my refusal hurt Alex's feelings but they did not press the issue. Sometime later it came to pass that Ben was in some serious legal trouble. What had started a low-key investigation into allegations of professional misconduct had uncovered evidence of far more serious crimes.
Naturally this was a topic that Alex and I talked about, and something that Alex kept coming back to was how "unfortunate" it was that Ben had lost his job and was likely going to go to prison. This was a thread that I just could not help but tug at, leading to the following paraphrased conversation.
This took me aback. Someone who I quite liked, for whom I had a lot of respect seemed to be making a fully general argument against having any legal code at all.
I tried to argue that we can not have a safe high-trust society where rapists murders and thieves are free to rape murder and steal without consequence. For Alex's part, they argued from first principles. Harm and suffering were axiomatically bad. Ergo inflicting harm and suffering on another was always wrong regardless of the circumstances. I would ask things like "How is saying nobody should ever be punished for a specific crime, any different from saying that crime should be legal?". "Don't you have any sympathy for the accused?" and "Are you arguing that harm and suffering are good?" Alex would respond. And so we went in circles, and as we did the conversation became more vitriolic. It ended with Alex accusing me of being hateful, vindictive, and wanting to hurt Ben out of jealousy, and with me calling them an enabler and "a fucking sociopath". The next day I found that Alex had blocked me on social media and had blocked my number.
This happened a while ago but I have been thinking about it lately because I feel like my falling out with Alex illustrates a quintessential failure mode of the sort of polite liberalism espoused by commentators like David Roberts, Bill Kristol, and Scott Alexander. And I feel like I've been seeing the results this failure mode more and more of late across multiple stages and venues in my professional, personal, political, and online life.
Scott Alexander was wrong. The natural end state of liberal discourse is not "seven zillion Witches and three Principled Libertarians" it is "seven zillion Witches and zero Principled Libertarians" because all the libertarians have been shouted down, driven off, or banned, for refusing to compromise on one point or another.
I see all these people lamenting increasing polarization, lack of trust, and proliferation of "Stand Your Ground Laws", and the question I really want to ask all of them is; To what degree have you been the Jack Kerouac to someone else's Dean Moriarty?
I'm confused by this; are you in the role of polite libertarian here, or is Alex? Facially, this sounds like a bog-standard case of pampered sociopath twentysomethings happily bullying a weaker person for laughs, but feeling shocked and offended when any unpleasant consequences come for a Real Person of their class and social circle. Tale as old as time, surely? As Mel Brooks said: "Tragedy is when I cut my finger; comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die."
The only slight wrinkle here is that Alex had the cognitive capacity to build a bullshit ad-hoc argument around his visceral indignation at a system that would impose any suffering on him or his friends. But as you point out, the argument makes no sense, and presumably Alex himself would drop it immediately if someone ever committed a crime against him. What is the connection to Stand Your Ground laws?
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Scott said that the natural end-state of free-speech alternatives to captured discourse venues was "approximately three principled civil libertarians and seven zillion witches". He didn't say that this was the natural end-state of those captured discourse venues themselves, and almost certainly doesn't believe it.
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The whole story is very odd, but this stood out. How did they contribute to it exactly? Was there a 4chan campaign to email the guy's employer that I haven't heard about? Because if not I find it bizarre they'd even see themselves as contributing to the guy's firing.
You're both wrong. There is no natural state of liberal discourse, and liberalism's obsession with pretending that it's merely riding natural tides rather then shaping them, is exactly why it's taking such a beating of late.
Ben claimed to have gone to the employer's website and filed a complaint form about their "racist" driver, it was going that extra step that formed my opinion of him as not being "a BGP".
Christ, what a wanker.
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The road to hell is paved with
good intentionsBasically Good Persons who, not having thought about their values, are easily led to commit atrocities when their neighbours all tell them that that is what a Good Person does.(In the 1980s, some Concerned Citizens¹ lobbied heavily to include in children's television series the message that The Complainer Is Always Wrong, and that one ought to unquestioningly follow one's peers. Had I been in those meetings, I would have wanted to take out a copy of Eichmann in Jerusalem and ask "are you sure you want to stand on that principle?")
¹“He knew about concerned citizens. Wherever they were, they all spoke the same private language, where 'traditional values' meant 'hang someone'." -- Sir Terry Pratchett, The Truth
(GNU Pterry)
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I appreciate the steelman and I definitely am not a normie and never have been one, and a lot of this I did learn. That said I actually find 1:1 conversations much more manageable with these types because it's so much easier to steer the conversation, and even if it's just you asking questions, you have a lot of power to break the script (if they aren't totally steamrolling you) and have some interesting sparks of life come out of the chat, even if I still would tend to avoid these people when possible because I still don't enjoy the life-script readouts.
In the case I posted though I feel like it's an actual degenerate situation because it's two overly excited people dominating a conversation in a group of 10 or so others, actively cutting them off when trying to pipe in with their own observations, because they just have to get their whole scripts out in turn, and I feel like in that case it is kind of like a child barreling through an antique shop or something, it's like there is no concern shown for one's environment and feels like a kind of rudeness of ignorance that puts me in a bad mood. In those cases you basically need enough social cache to really butt in and change the course of things.
And where I feel especially non-normie is I am the only person I know who ever actually does that, and most others basically do the seal-clap thing of just continuing to try to pipe in additions or laughing politely. Which is to say even in this case most people seem satisfied (or just stay silent miserably) and I wish there was more collective awareness that we could actually include everyone and allow the conversation flow naturally if more people took initiative in directing the flow forcefully.
And I think this points to a kind of false dichotomy which is kind of like the teenage angst of "no one will have deep conversations with me" vs. accept small talk as is. And I think the tertiary option is to actually ubermench things to go the way you want, but you need to have the social cache to do that or else you basically just get looked at funny, and it's very rare for anyone else to put their neck out there so you're on your own.
A-ha! My mistake for missing this angle. I was posting very early this morning due to some insomnia so my mind wasn't very sharp.
In the case you outlined, about these two monopolizing discourse within a group, my perspective would be to 100% not try to change the dynamic no matter what kind of social cache you have. Then, avoid hanging out with these people to the extent possible. If it's a work situation, I can understand that's difficult, but I feel it's the only option.
Let me re-use my "Lauren" example. Fudging her exact age a little to protect privacy, let's say Lauren is about 42 years old. She is divorced. She is on every dating app and none of her dates - ever - goes well. Or maybe the first one goes alright but by date three there are "red flags" everywhere. Would you be shocked - shocked - to learn that my opinion is that Lauren is the problem in these romantic trails to nowhere? Lauren has poor social skills and does not pick up on the clues people have been sending her for, probably, about 30 years. While this may make my tiny heart hurt a little, I am also experienced enough to know that trying to coach a full grown adult through basic social skills is the losingest of all propositions. If they haven't adjusted by now it can be a sign of actual autism or other such disorders but, far, far more likely it is a deep character flaw. Often times it is inherited. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Lauren's mother was very similar and that, perhaps, her father (who I don't hear about) was out of the picture early.
Don't delude yourself into ubermensching. The other eight people in the group aren't going to thank you for your deft navigation of the conversation. They'll feel relieved in the moment and then forget all about it the second the conservation breaks up and the group members go about their day. If you're in a work situation and have to maintain some rapport and not be the weird guy who eats alone in the corner, I'd recommend turning into the "drive-by joke" guy. You see the conversation monopolizers doing their thing and the seal-clappers enduring it. Don't fully join the conversation. Instead, choose a moment to drop in - interrupting is fine - with a little humor. I don't know, something like, "I see Congress is in session. Very good." You'll figure it out. Then, you're still demonstrating that fellow-feeling my original comment touched on but without committing to this zero-win-probability endeavor.
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