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PaperclipPerfector  1mo ago (text post)   2922 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for November 16, 2025

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Just semi-randomly encountered this:

Prior to that moment, the sin I wore on my sleeve was that of a lesbian: a label I had the courage to give myself at age 17. This label described an affection I noticed before I knew how to spell my name. When it happened on the playground, I didn’t know what it was.

Wut? I dont remember hearing any claims of sexual orientation manifesting pre-puberty. It doesnt seem like it would fit a christian narrative either. Is there some background I dont know?

When it comes to sexual orientation specifically, it manifested for me personally during early puberty, and attraction to specific girls came a few years after that. My older brother introduced me to nudie mags much earlier, mind, and they always had that "Adult" mystique about them that attracted me, much like candy cigarettes and sitting at a bar and ordering Shirley Temples, but when puberty hit, the appeal suddenly made sense to me on a whole new level. That said, I've also heard from some people that their orientation was obvious to them significantly before puberty, and I found these accounts to be perfectly believable. In fact, there are aspects of my own sexuality that I can trace back to early childhood things, FWTW, so to me this is one of those parts where we all have commonalities and differences in our own individual experience of life.

I wouldn't say I had any sexual attraction pre-puberty, but my first crush/infatuation was in elementary school. There were at least 2 or 3 of those before I hit puberty, all to the opposite sex, which probably wasn't coincidental.

Anecdotally, at least half the boys I grew up with who ultimately came out as homosexual were pretty obviously "different" compared to the other boys from a very early age.

That can fit with either a born this way natural inclination model that they were less masculine because of estrogen in the womb, or with a sin model that they were effeminate boys who were targeted or turned by propaganda later. Either it's a natural inclination that manifests as not enjoying football or war early. Or it's a case of less masculine boys who don't enjoy football or war choosing homosexuality as a kind of fallback that valorizes them as an effeminate man. Or if you prefer the abuse theory, effeminate boys are targeted for conversion by homosexuals.

There are also outliers, of course. I'm not really clear on what I think homosexuality is anymore.

It’s not unusual a claim, even for straights.

((Though not universal; there’s no shortage of people in that thread not noticing until much later, and I myself was a very late bloomer in both the sexual arousal and romantic attraction senses. Those I was curious about what other guy’s dicks looked like well before I wanted to do anything and that I’d assume straight guys didn’t, so maybe I was just really clueless.))

There’s an uncertain question of whether it’s post hoc hindsight, and a bigger question whether it distinguishes sexual orientation from romantic orientation. But the split attraction model is itself a controversial mess, and enough of its ‘clearest’ cases are just as clearly closeted that I’m skeptical of self-reports.

How did that tweet end up sticking in your memory, o lorekeeper?

The downside to building a good memory is that you end up with a good memory, though in that case it's because of MorlockP's treatment of "I can save her" as particularly verbotten that it stuck better (and was more searchable).

For the Christian narrative part, its wrapped up in whether the inclination itself is a sin or whether only the acts that the inclination leads to. Different denominations fall on both sides, which I think is part and parcel with whether their understanding of grace and being saved.

Yeah, I meant this in the sense of "doesnt especially promote", because if it did, that might explain why something weird shows up.

I dont remember hearing any claims of sexual orientation manifesting pre-puberty.

Anecdotally, I have clear childhood memories of being fascinated by boobs/curves/legs way, way before puberty. Finding a stack of Playboy magazines was a treasure by first grade. The male form never got anywhere close to being that visually appealing.

A fully developed sexual consciousness no, but I think a rudimentary sexual inclination is expected, at least the bare minimum of knowing whether you "like" girls or boys. I think the alternative that you wouldn't know until you've reached puberty is harder to imagine.

Or is it the "before I could spell my name" part? I mean, her name isn't that hard to spell but we're hearing stories about people who leave higher education with minimal literacy so it's not impossible that she was a slow learner, although I'm guessing most of those don't become writers. It's probably just a turn of phrase.

Maybe it’s because I’m on the autistic spectrum, but pre-puberty I had a mostly equal split of male and female friends and never once did the subject of “liking” boys or girls come up in conversation. I remember parents making insinuations about it, but that’s it.

Well, I dont have to imagine. I mean, I "knew" that I would like girls because thats how all the adults ended up, and I did, but it sure didnt feel that way at the time.

And I mean, in what sense would you "like" them? Social groups are a lot more sex segregated before puberty IME, which is not what Id expect if they liked each other to a significant extent. Is there any non-introspective observation that makes you expect that?

Let's say puberty begins around 12, that's plenty of time to pick up on the memeset around sexual attraction and compare it against what does and doesn't resonate with your own feelings.

The only thing I can think of that would make it confusing is if, like the writer, somebody found their own sex more attractive but the whole of society was prompting them with expectations to be interested in the other sex for whom they felt very little. In that case I can imagine the person wondering whether their feelings will change when they grow up and then getting hit with the elevated production of hormones at puberty and realising that there's no room for doubt; they like what they like even more than before. Or maybe if a kid had grown up with only siblings of the other sex and mistook their lack of fondness for them as extending to all members of that sex.

in what sense would you "like" them?

At its basic level in the undeveloped puppy-dog love sense. "Girl A <3 Boy B" written on a pencil case, or having a favourite pop singer who you like solely because of how nice they look instead of what their music is like, or wanting to play a pretend grown-up relationship role with one particular playmate, or childish jealousy/envy that that one particular person is playing that role with some other boy/girl, or focusing on one person and following them around and wanting to be involved in all their activities despite having no inherent interest in those activities, or kids teasing each other about who they "like". All common behaviours in my experience that can be seen as expressing the same instincts you see in adult attraction and relationships. I expect Desmond Morris has written on the subject in more detail.

Let's say puberty begins around 12, that's plenty of time to pick up on the memeset around sexual attraction and compare it against what does and doesn't resonate with your own feelings.

Maybe you misunderstood the question. That doesnt explain why you think they already have those feelings.

All common behaviours in my experience

Huh. In my experience, elementary-school boys and girls rarely play with each other. We did tease each other over "liking" someone (in the later years), but those attributions where made up on the flimisiest of pretexts and really just exist for the sake of the teasing. I think that is just imitating the older kids where the first ones who do start to like are, understandably, made fun of.

Maybe you misunderstood the question. That doesnt explain why you think they already have those feelings.

I don't think I do understand the question, I thought "All common behaviours in my experience" explained why I think they had those feelings. I saw other kids in primary school behaving in ways that were motivated by a special affection that wasn't normal friendship. Add to that that some people are shy and there were probably other people who had those same feelings but didn't openly express them.

those attributions where made up on the flimisiest of pretexts and really just exist for the sake of the teasing

It was made up for the sake of teasing but the effectiveness of the teasing relies on its plausibility. We didn't tease each other about being bad at driving.

Outside of those kind of inferential observations there were the open admissions. You'd tell a friend that you liked a girl, or he'd tell you, or one of the girls would tell her friend to tell you that she liked your friend, and there was no confusion about what was meant by "liking" someone. All of those likings were directed at their opposite sex. All that together suggests to me that many kids can intuit which sex they are attracted to before reaching puberty. Without seeing these kinds of discussions on the internet I would have thought it was rare not to.

Out of interest, when you were a kid what internal response did you have when you happened upon risque images?

the effectiveness of the teasing relies on its plausibility

Nah, we used "gay" as a universal insult before we knew what it meant also.

or one of the girls would tell her friend to tell you that she liked your friend

That did happen a couple times. At least half those times I know the middle friend made it up to troll her. I do/did think some of them were "real" but... idk, the girls had a lot of vaguely romance-coded social activities, most of which obviously werent that serious. Also, no boy made an admission of any kind.

when you were a kid what internal response did you have when you happened upon risque images

I dont remember anything. Im sure it happended but it must not have had much impact.

This certainly wasn't how it was for me. I grew up in a mostly male environment, and I had at least some of these moments with other boys because that's who was around. In general it took a long time to be sure of exactly who and what I wanted, and it certainly happened post-puberty.

Assuming your childhood was free from the internet did you never experience any degree of internal response to seeing a flash of nudity in a film, an underwear model in a clothing catalogue, or some other intrusion into your awareness?

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