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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   34540 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 30, 2023

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Elevatorgate: Effective Altruism version?Effective Altruism Promises to Do Good Better. These Women Say It Has a Toxic Culture Of Sexual Harassment and Abuse

Does anyone remember Elevatorgate? Long story short: the atheist "movement" had gotten going, many books were published and cons were attended. At one a figure in the community "Skepchick"- Rebecca Watson- was propositioned by a man who'd attended her talk in an elevator and made a video stating - in understated tones given the conflagration it started tbh - that she didn't like it and it made her feel unsafe.

Because this was pre-#MeToo and the Great Awokening and atheists at the time kind of prided themselves on being assholes truth-tellers , figures like Dawkins jumped in, criticizing or mocking her for complaining about such an anodyne event. Dawkins wrote a notorious letter titled "Dear Muslima", mockingly comparing the suffering of a hypothetical circumcised Muslim woman with Watson in the sort of move that wouldn't even begin to fly today.

Well...that led to an absolute shitstorm that split the atheist community with some using it to create "Atheism+": basically atheism that was sufficiently woke, after insisting atheism had a racism/sexism/whatever problem. As foreshadowing for a now pervasive social tendency, it then ate itself with circular firing squads and purity spirals.

At the time, there was enough pushback that Watson and her defenders didn't outright win but she probably won the moral victory. Years down the line most of the leftover "100% atheist" communities were pretty woke, see the banning of RationalityRules for arguing against trans-identified males in women's sports.

Now...

But as Gopalakrishnan got further into the movement, she realized that “the advertised reality of EA is very different from the actual reality of EA,” she says. She noticed that EA members in the Bay Area seemed to work together, live together, and sleep together, often in polyamorous sexual relationships with complex professional dynamics. Three times in one year, she says, men at informal EA gatherings tried to convince her to join these so-called “polycules.” When Gopalakrishnan said she wasn’t interested, she recalls, they would “shame” her or try to pressure her, casting monogamy as a lifestyle governed by jealousy, and polyamory as a more enlightened and rational approach.

After a particularly troubling incident of sexual harassment, Gopalakrishnan wrote a post on an online forum for EAs in Nov. 2022. While she declined to publicly describe details of the incident, she argued that EA’s culture was hostile toward women. “It puts your safety at risk,” she wrote, adding that most of the access to funding and opportunities within the movement was controlled by men. Gopalakrishnan was alarmed at some of the responses. One commenter wrote that her post was “bigoted” against polyamorous people. Another said it would “pollute the epistemic environment,” and argued it was “net-negative for solving the problem.”

...

Gopalakrishnan is one of seven women connected to effective altruism who tell TIME they experienced misconduct ranging from harassment and coercion to sexual assault within the community. The women allege EA itself is partly to blame. They say that effective altruism’s overwhelming maleness, its professional incestuousness, its subculture of polyamory and its overlap with tech-bro dominated “rationalist” groups have combined to create an environment in which sexual misconduct can be tolerated, excused, or rationalized away. Several described EA as having a “cult-like” dynamic.

...

One recalled being “groomed” by a powerful man nearly twice her age who argued that “pedophilic relationships” were both perfectly natural and highly educational. Another told TIME a much older EA recruited her to join his polyamorous relationship while she was still in college. A third described an unsettling experience with an influential figure in EA whose role included picking out promising students and funneling them towards highly coveted jobs. After that leader arranged for her to be flown to the U.K. for a job interview, she recalls being surprised to discover that she was expected to stay in his home, not a hotel. When she arrived, she says, “he told me he needed to masturbate before seeing me.”

I'm torn.

On the one hand, I recognize the same tactics (and, tbh, it doesn't escape my notice that the first victim seems to have social competition with males for funding on her mind) that ripped the Atheist community apart. I also find most of the examples of harassment to be of the all-too-common nebulous and vague variety that allow people to claim victimhood. I honestly don't know if people are this fragile nowadays, or are exaggerating their fragility for points, but it is a bit absurd. If you're an adult, I don't want to hear about you being groomed. A "22f-44m" relationship is one where one party is twice as old but it'd be absurd to act like one party didn't have agency.

A lot of the complaints also seem to be that alleged rationalists and effective altruists - for some reason - don't just take people at their word.

On the other hand: some of these (e.g. the final one I quoted, the one about a male jumping into a woman's bed at night) are more egregious and the quokka point is well-applied here for those "good" EAs who still encouraged people not to go to the cops. It's exactly the sort of problematic math I can see some people doing. Hell, people did it all the time in churches, schools and so on. It's not a particular foible of EAs.

Also:

Several of the women who spoke to TIME said that the popularity of polyamory within EA fosters an environment in which men—often men who control career opportunities–feel empowered to recruit younger women into uncomfortable sexual relationships. Many EAs embrace nontraditional living arrangements and question established taboos, and plenty of people, including many women, enthusiastically consent to sharing partners with others.

I have to say I find this funny. People discovering that looser social and sexual norms allow bad actors - or merely "people with more status than me who don't want to treat me as I think I deserve" - to accrue sexual and social benefits and blur the lines. Quelle surprise.

Oooh I have thoughts on this. I'll be honest, I actually think Atheism+ is the "root" of what makes up much of Woke/Neoprogressive culture today. Or more specifically, it was the vector that took this stuff from forums to social media. I was actually there for it. In fact, I would say that during it was when I "switched sides"....or more specifically, I realized that me, as a liberal, really had nothing in common with this form of Progressivism. What I saw, was people wanted power more than actual systematic change. Simple as that.

Later on, I came to the conclusion that Elevatorgate more than likely was always "inside the house", that is, it was specifically a problem for this Neoprogressive/Polyamorous community. And in reality, so much of the problems that were being claimed were linked to that. I still find it hard to believe that nobody actually knew who "Elevator Guy" is, to be blunt.

Now, let me make it clear. I have nothing at all against Polyamory. In fact, I am Poly myself. However...I do think that this combined with a sort of moral license that can come from political activism can be a negative thing. And I don't think it's limited to the left...or even directly linked to polyamory actually. Certainly it's a problem you see on the religious right as well.

I am disappointed that EA is used in this way, although in retrospect it's probably impossible to avoid.

I have to say I find this funny. People discovering that looser social and sexual norms allow bad actors - or merely "people with more status than me who don't want to treat me as I think I deserve" - to accrue sexual and social benefits and blue the lines. Quelle surprise.

See, I'm not even convinced that it's the looser social and sexual norms per se. I mean in a way it is. But I do think the second half of that..."people with more status than me who don't want to treat me as I think I deserve", preys on a lot of status hunger among people. Frankly, that's what makes people vulnerable, both because they want the social status power, and they're also afraid of it being used against them.

The term I used way back when was "Theme Park". It seemed to me that people wanted this edgeless, curated environment for them to explore whatever they wanted to. However, that's not realistic at all.

Oooh I have thoughts on this. I'll be honest, I actually think Atheism+ is the "root" of what makes up much of Woke/Neoprogressive culture today. Or more specifically, it was the vector that took this stuff from forums to social media. I was actually there for it. In fact, I would say that during it was when I "switched sides"....or more specifically, I realized that me, as a liberal, really had nothing in common with this form of Progressivism. What I saw, was people wanted power more than actual systematic change. Simple as that.

I am not sure I agree that Atheism+ is what spawned wokeism; I think they were just the atheist community's metastasization of a phenomenon that began in communities like LiveJournal and Tumblr. But they certainly were influential in taking it mainstream and spreading it outside of rather rarified fan and hobby enclaves.

I was an early participant in Atheism+, even considered myself an "ally," and that experience was a turning point. It's not the only thing that turned me against wokeism (back then we still called them SJWs), but it was probably the most significant.

I was an early participant in Atheism+, even considered myself an "ally," and that experience was a turning point.

Tell us how they removed your ally card, everyone loves a good redemption arc.

I parted ways with wokism around elevator guy, I could never figure out what he did wrong, and that sent me down the antifeminist rabbit hole.

I could never figure out what he did wrong

Horny, drunk and stupid in the wrong way at the wrong time. Assumptions that an atheist chick would be up for sex anytime because hey, she's an atheist, doesn't have the same hang-ups as religiously raised women. Waited till it was just him and her in the lift, which makes it a confined space she can't get out of if she says no and you turn nasty. Everyone was probably slightly drunk because they'd been talking in the hotel bar. It was early hours of the morning and she was dog-tired and not in the mood for anything but grabbing some shut-eye in her own room. She didn't know him except as "one of the group of us in the bar talking" so she had no priors on whether or not he would turn nasty if told "no". Five minutes consideration if he was sober/less clueless should have told him "Not now, Horace" but horny, drunk and stupid like I said.

And no woman likes the implication that "Just because I'm an atheist that means I'll open my legs for any guy at any time".

EDIT: Now, I can understand it from his side: waited till it was just him and her in the lift because this was his best chance and he didn't feel comfortable saying it in front of the group and getting turned down; probably a tiny bit star-struck because this was the Skepchick; hey if he didn't try then he'd never get anywhere - 'if you're not in, you can't win'; also they'd been in the bar, probably drinking, probably a bit tiddly so alcohol and horniness over-rode good sense. He probably never even considered he would come across as a possible threat because men don't think this way the way women do, and we can argue over that later, but women are raised to be careful about being alone with strange men in confined spaces especially when the possibility of sex arises. There needn't have been any bad intentions on his part at all, but it was still a poor move.

She could say no, if she felt uncomfortable with a simple proposition, she if not fit to even participate in society.

This "He'll turn violent so I couldn't say no!" is a ridiculous excuse, but I hear it as an excuse all the time for women doing horrible things like adultery.

Consider this a moderation response not just to this post, but also this one and this one and this one and this one.

Basically, a whole string of bad posts, none of which are super terrible by themselves, just generally sneering and low effort inflammatory claims without evidence, but when you plop this many bad hot takes into the mod queue at once (note I am only linking to the ones that have actually been reported), it indicates someone coming in hot with an attitude that needs to be adjusted.

Don't post like this. Put some effort into your arguments. This is not the place for spewing your "bitches, amirite?" grievances.

Take two days off to chill out.

Assumptions that an atheist chick would be up for sex anytime because hey, she's an atheist, doesn't have the same hang-ups as religiously raised women.

Those are all your assumptions. But even if they were his, I don't find this insulting or creepy in the least, if those are valid categories. Maybe to religious women, but who cares in that situation. In the end, all he did was say what he wanted to say for 10 seconds, got turned down, went on his way. Everything worked out as it's supposed to, except quicker and more painlessly than usual.

Confined space

What, is she claustrophobic as well? It’s an elevator, the least private place in the building, people always a ding away.

from your other comments:

While I'm not broadly sympathetic to the whole organised atheist movement of that time, I can empathise with Watson

I don’t see why you put this as some sort of disclaimer. Obviously, it’s easy for you to believe that your ideological enemies ‘talk creepily’ to women. But would you be as ‘empathic’ if the allegations were about your own ideological group ?

How could you explain her position, since your solution presumably includes waiting until marriage to invite a woman over for room coffee.

Then came Elevatorgate, and suddenly "Do you want to come to my room for coffee?" simply meant an offer of coffee and how could anyone imagine it was an offer of sex? You see my confusion?

It’s ambiguous on purpose, everybody knows this. As that video says, "using the literal form to signal the safest message to the listener while counting on them to read between the lines". It has a part that’s literally about how old the line 'would you like to come up and see my etchings?' is.

You're doing the same thing by mixing awkwardness with the threat narrative. The ephemeral privacy of the elevator lends itself to awkwardness, not crime.

I mean, I'll give mine.

After the whole EG thing, I started talking about how they needed to change the code of conduct/create a schedule to make these events more professional on the whole. Sure you could have your fun/flirty drinky time, but they'd be limited to certain events that people could opt-in/opt-out of.

Went over like a lead balloon.

It's when I realized people were full of shit, they didn't want any actual change, they just wanted the power to enforce arbitrary rules to both get rid of undesirables and to protect themselves.

Reading back those old blog posts, I'm reminded how ubiquitous the 'invitation' to check your privilege was. Has that meme died, or am I no longer hanging out with any SJWs. Clearly privilege theory is still part of the SJW canon, but perhaps the sides have hardened, and it has never been of any use against the committed anti-woke. Atheism + parted humanity into those who check their privilege and those who don't.

Honestly, I think it's a bit more complicated than that. I actually think it's a power fight over who has to check their privilege and who doesn't. Who is going to be deconstructed and who is going to be spared that inspection. As people say in this community, it's the "Who, Whom" problem, Who sets the rules and on whom are they going to be enforced. Truth be told, I don't think any of the individual issues actually matter all that much in terms of the culture wars.

I'll be blunt, actually "checking your privilege" is basically riddled with anxiety, if you're actually doing it. I'm speaking as someone with personal experience in this. It's about always second and third-guessing everything you actually do. It's not healthy in any way shape or form. The goal is to get the outgroup to do it, but not the in-group, so the in-group has decided advantages in society.

I don't think check your privilege is a particularly new or SJW aligned idea, it's literally just thanks giving and he Christians have had their version of it for thousands of years. The SJW angle was weaponizing it as a way to enforce the progressive stack, still in its proto form back then, over decoupled arguments.

I don't mean thanksgiving, I mean the specific idea that 'oppressed' perspectives are inherently more valuable than 'oppressors' because they have to know oppressors to survive while oppressors don't have to, and therefore oppressors of any axis should generally shut up and listen, which is how it was used. It creates a bit of a paradox, since they are asked to check something that should be invisible to them, according to the theory. So they have to default to oppressed people perspective, who can see fine, and guide them through the invisible knapsack.

Tell us how they removed your ally card, everyone loves a good redemption arc.

Someday maybe I will write it up, except I'm afraid there might be too much identifying information. But I think I can take partial credit for the Atheism+ forums imploding.

Certainly I agree with you.

My point is that I really do think it was the Atheism+ strand of the whole thing that "caught fire" and was broadly picked up. I don't think it was picked up directly from LJ, Tumblr or SRS so much, although certainly, and I specifically think it was SRS that was embraced by the A+ crowd...

Actually let me rephrase that. I think the FTB side of the whole A+ thing was heavily influenced by SRS, and the whole ironic cruelty thing. But there was also the A+ forums, (and the two didn't really get along) that was much more Tumblr influenced I think. (Honestly, the whole LiveJournal as radical thing missed me, so I can't really tell you much, the only things I ever read on there were Scott's journal pre-SSC and various Tales from Tech Support type stuff)

Anyway, I do think that largely it's that "ironic cruelty" that set the stage for what we see as woke culture today.

Had to think for a minute, was FTB the ironically named "free thought blogs(?)" site? Ashamed I recognized all the other acronyms...

Yeah, way too many acronyms in that post. What's "SRS"? I think, with the help of your post, I get all the others.

Subreddit called shitredditsays.

It was the main watering hole of the woke back in the day

Probably /r/ShitRedditSays

Yup. You got it.

What was the ironic cruelty thing?

I don't know of another way to put it. Maybe there's nothing ironic about it, but I do think that the ShitRedditSays culture that IMO A+ fundamentally is based on is stupid levels of cruel. I know, even back when I was on the other side of things, and people were raving about how cool that culture was, I took one look at it and just noped away. It's something I want no part of.

Ah shitredditsays, they were one of the first things I saw on reddit - back around 2013 I think - and I basically wrote the whole site off for years as a result. I thought there might have been some kind of flashpoint or the like centred around the idea, but I do think it's a good description. The drama-miners have a bit of that too.

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