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She is doing a piss-poor job, then, because another car passes in front of her shortly before ICE agents approach her. It looks more to me like she got stopped in the middle of a three point turn.
I have a strong suspicion that ICE deliberately hemmed her in, given that there are ICE vehicles on either side of her. Likely doing the thing they often do where they stop and harass people for observing them. Only this time, the observer panicked and so did ICE.
Where? The agent in front of her was some ways off and she unambiguously turns away from him.
There was a longer video I saw that showed a few minutes beforehand. There were dozens of people on foot "observing" the ICE agents, where "observing" is some dishonest libtard euphemism for "screaming insults and hostility like psychotic banshees in a way that absolutely and obviously made the situation more tense, stressful and dangerous for everyone involved."
Yes. The protestors should all be tried as accessories. In the best case for your take here, they were idiotically engineering the precursors for a tragedy. In the realistic scenario, they were actively hoping for it, plus or minus some dead LEOs.
Frankly, I do not give a fuck. Civilians on the sidewalk being assholes is normal even for regular police ops. The ICE people earn a 100k$/year of taxpayer money, the 'libtards' on the sidewalk do not. You will forgive me for holding the people with the government paychecks and badges to higher standards than the others.
Are you suggesting that they were committing a felony, so that they are guilty of felony murder?
Hm, MN seems to have a rather broad felony murder law](https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19):
With felony being very broadly defined:
The trade-off is that you only get 2nd degree murder, which does not have a minimum mandatory sentence. So what felony do you think the people yelling at ICE from the sidewalk might be found guilty off?
Of course. Infinitely high standards for ICE agents, whoopsie-daisie we accidentally frauded $10 billion for welfare agents.
Fairness says right-wingers can act like this at every Democrat employed by the state of Minnesota, right? Their offices are paid for by the tax-payers, so they should have no expectation to privacy or not having people scream the most insane, hateful obscenities in their faces every minute they're on the clock.
Maybe if Nick and Dave are literally filming every single form that they fill out, we'll finally get a handle on all the fraud and corruption.
And obviously, if any of them is ever less than perfectly professional about the process, they get fired immediately.
As a principled first amendment fan, i think that you should be able to scream whatever the fuck you want at cops at any time.
Public defenders too then, right?
More or less, yes.
Props on the consistency.
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I do not endorse this personally, but presumably if you started with the driver violating 18 USC 111, which is elevated to a felony through the use of violence, and could prove direct incitement by the protestors under 18 USC 2, that would theoretically get you there.
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You know better.
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Surely you don't seriously believe that protestors should be tried as accessories simply for being obnoxious and increasing background stress? If you don't, please don't say it, because it doesn't do favors to the discourse here whether or not it's specifically prohibited. If you do, you need to do better than simply toss out something inflammatory like that. Making the action of 'raising tension' a crime is bananas.
Morally? I think they're absolutely culpable. I find their behavior virulently anti-social and anti-civic, and it ought to be possible to crack down on it in some fashion. Maybe if they'd gotten hit with obstruction or harassment misdemeanors beforehand, we wouldn't be talking about how much blame they deserve for a death.
I agree that in practice, these kinds of histrionics aren't good for much. But I'm curious how you would answer the following - suppose, for the sake of argument, that you did believe ICE under Trump are an institution of evil, that ~every ICE operation is a moral outrage. How would you behave if you were walking around your neighborhood and found yourself witness to just such an operation? If necessary, switch out ICE and immigration enforcement under Trump for any atrocity of your choice that a lawfully-elected government with diametrically opposed values and politics to your own might legalize within your lifetime, and ask yourself how you'd react to seeing that underway.
The way I see it, no one wants to be the guy who walks past the drowning child without comment. A man's conscience won't take it - for that matter, neither will his pride. He must do something - anything! The absence of such a moral instinct would actually be quite a worrying sign. Lucky for the fabric of society, for most people, that instinct is tempered by reason, so they don't jump in blindly and try to suicidally obstruct the enactment of the (perceived-to-be-)evil law all by themselves. But the outrage still has to out. So they jeer and scream and organize protests.
In other words, where you see something that needlessly escalates tense situations towards violence, I see the useful venting of energy that could otherwise boil over into far more immediate violence.
Yeah but ask those 'observers' how they feel about people protesting abortion clinics and they'd flip their tune instantaneously.
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Isn’t this just Jan 6? If you are morally outraged - you Protest and go to jail. In some cases perhaps tortured. Or you keep your mouth shut and show up to work everyday while providing for your family etc. That is your choice when you fight the regime.
In the case of Jan 6 everyone else basically decided to agree with them. The regime changed and in many cases you become a hero and often the leaders of the new regime.
Jan 6 differed from what I'm talking about in that they actually broke laws. Not, I would gladly agree, to the extent that it justified the cartoonish levels of pearl-clutching or the severity of the repression - but I was specifically talking about the displays of helpless disapproval that are available to a citizen who remains committed to not breaking the law, even as they bear witness to something which they find unconscionable.
Either case is obstructing lawful government action. It’s just a question of how much obstruction they are doing. Going to an arrest or ICE detention and blasting loud music interferes with the ability of ICE agents to think and do their job. There is even a Wikipedia article about loud music torture. So we have already established that noise pollution can be torture. Being loud and protesting an arrest isn’t physically interfering but it is usually in a non-criminal sense obstructing the police action.
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One of the reasons I despise these sort of protestors is the LARPing, Stolen Valor element to it. If I happened upon the SS engaged in an operation, I can't really say what I would do without more of a scenario. But I am willing to go on the record and say that performatively screaming at them like the worst Karen to ever disgrace a department store, accomplishing nothing remotely useful except making sure the Legions of Terror know that I am powerless and that I hate them, seems like the stupidest fucking thing I could possibly do. It's literally a Futurama gag.
The anti-ICE protestors have been exactly that stupid for probably 9 digits worth of encounter-people in the last year, and the response from the Legions of Terror has been incredibly reserved and professional. They do this shit, and get away with this shit, millions of times, precisely because everything they pretend to believe is wrong.
And they either know that, on at least some level,
Or they're all appallingly useless retards.
In the real world, ICE is doing routine law enforcement, following real, democratically enacted laws, after their biggest booster just won an election on having them do exactly that, and their professionalism and accuracy rates are, AFAICT, unprecedented in government service.
If I thought that was still evil (and there are government agencies where that is the case), then I would, you know, argue against them. And vote against them. And try to convince other people. I certainly wouldn't interpose myself in an ATF agent's way while he was doing his job, screaming that he's a baby murderer in his face, and then have the unmitigated gall to act surprised when he didn't take that well.
The people protesting this by acting like the shittiest, pro-criminal, traitor Karens are basically throwing a parade with a marching band, riding in the position of honor atop a bus sized brass boar, banging cymbals overhead, while planes in the sky write "We refuse to abide by the results of elections and you'd have to be fools to tolerate sharing a country with us."
Would you be that sanguine if we "vented" some anti-immigration energy by screaming obscenities in the faces of Somali daycare owners every time they tried to enter any public space?
Or do you just accept that left-wingers are dumb children who can't be expected to act like proper citizens or adults?
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Personally, I find accosting and murdering innocent people and then calling them domestic terrorists to be anti-social and anti-civic, and it ought to be possible to crack down on it in some fashion. Maybe if law enforcement suffered consequences more often for abusing their power, it would happen less often.
Which of the following would you disagree with?
From my perspective, if both are true, then innocent is not an accurate description of this person.
If people have evidence of this, they should present it. So far, I've seen people assume this out of instinctive deferrence to authority, but I haven't seen it substantiated (and, again, given ICE's history of lying to justify their undisciplined and aggressive behavior, I see no reason to trust them).
This is the slippery slope I mentioned, where "we require certain authority to do our job" becomes "we can do whatever we claim is necessary." ICE has a specific job that doesn't really them to send out masked goons like this.
I find it fairly unlikely ICE agents thought they had a real reason to try and detain her, rather than thinking they were going to put an obnoxious protestor in their place. And why not? There's no way they're going to be held accountable. Just loudly proclaim you bagged a domestic terrorist.
Okay, so what would you suggest instead? ICE's goal is to remove illegal aliens from the US. The people involved are unwilling to listen to the government saying "you need to leave now" - or they'd have left. Short of physically apprehending them, what would you suggest doing to remove said illegal aliens?
The first video has the car physically in their way; ICE tells the woman to "[get] Out of the car" twice, then says "Get out of the fucking car" once. Another woman screams "Nooooo!!!" as the first car begins to back up, then accelerates forwards amidst other cries of "Noooo!!!". I think the evidence that the car is impeding ICE officers is that the first video shows the car impeding ICE officers.
"Physically apprehending them" covers a range of possibilities, and prominent does not include arresting, intimidating, or murdering US citizens. There's also pursuing legal changes that would make it vastly harder to employ illegal immigrants.
The first video has the car bracketed by ICE vehicles and has another vehicle passing in front of it. Strongly suggests ICE boxed her in, rather than vice versa (something they have done in the past as well, though last time the woman they shot survived).
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Did you look?
I saw footage on 2way of an eye witness making this claim. She could be wrong, but it isn't just speculation and defensive reporting by agencies.
Yes, I spent a fair amount of time yesterday evening looking for longer, unedited footage that might clarify the origin of the confrontation.
So far I have hearsay or inference, frequently from people who openly endorse violence against protesters.
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Okay, I'm glad you clarified, but there's a wide gulf between "tried as accessories" (requires knowledge of a crime and actual aid) and moral culpability (subjective opinion) so you shouldn't treat them as interchangeable. And regularly handing out misdemeanors for protest somewhat undermines the actual right of protest. I mean, personally I agree that this type of 'protest' is largely counterproductive, but sometimes we need to tolerate anti-social or anti-civic behavior for the sake of upholding the sanctity of civic rights generally. Would we be better off as a society if misdemeanors are handed out left and right just because ICE gets annoyed? Feels like no.
I don't want to do the leftist moral victim-blame card of saying "oh ICE/Trump deserved it because they escalated first"; blaming protestors feels like basically the opposite side of the same coin, yeah?
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She definitely does make contact with him. The other angle makes it a little more clear. https://x.com/nicksortor/status/2008973759097733306
I don't think that clearly shows that at all, and other close-up footage makes it pretty clear that any contact was incidental at most (the guy who was allegedly injured is clearly fine).
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Do you honestly believe for 1 second that she's just doing piss poor job of parallel parking, or alternatively gotten lost and trying to make a u turn? That it's just a tooootal coincidence that this happened right in the middle of a massive protest, with a bunch of protestors already filming the situation? That she was just in the wrong place at the wrong time?
I pretty clearly spell out what I think happened in the second paragraph of my post.
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