This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I don't get the antifa denialism that some people have. The group has flags, posters, uniforms, websites, safehouses etc. It's extremely easy to find photos of all of these things on the internet. Yet there's a constant group of people who continue to say that antifa isn't a thing.
The antifa of right-wing paranoia is some sort of well-organized shadowy terrorist group with coherent plans. The antifa that actually exists is a loosely-federated movement with no true leadership or strategy, whose "members" include people with very disparate beliefs and abilities - including a substantial, though not overwhelming, percentage of posers whose idea of praxis is stealing traffic cones. The problem isn't that there's no flags, posters, uniforms etc. - it's that any idiot can and does create an antifa website or leave antifa posters or cosplay as antifa with no oversight or endorsement by anyone else already using the name.
(Of course, this doesn't necessarily make them harmless - you could phrase the comparison as "right-wingers think Antifa is like ISIS, whereas in fact Antifa is more like Jihadis in general", after all. But it does at the very least render "there were antifa members at such-and-such protests" a kind of meaningless statement. Even if there were people who like to think of themselves as antifa members at that protest, it does little to prove that there's some shadowy men in a bunker pulling the strings of all protests at which such people are found. It just proves that left-wing protests attract a fringe of the kind of edgelords who are attracted to the antifa memeplex. You don't say.)
While this seems very true, it is even messier. At least international Jihadi terrorists roughly agree on the acceptable means (killing infidels in countries which mess with Muslim countries) and broad ideological world view, even if they differ on concrete strategy and priorities.
Within the left, you would be hard-pressed to find two people who agree on the political theory. Some are anarchists, communists, others are likely more moderate. And SJ did not make that any simpler.
Basically, anyone who subscribes to "fascism should be violently resisted where required" can adopt the label Antifa. (Indeed, I myself subscribe to that, though I do not consider myself Antifa. I just do not see any fascism which could be effectively neutered by me violently resisting anyone.)
The devil is in the details. What counts as fascism, now that Hitler and Mussolini are dead? Paleoconservatives? MAGA? Nethanyahu? Putin? Any Western capitalist society? Neo-Nazis?
And what violence is required? Smashing the state to bring about a communist utopia or stop the colonial exploitation? Beating up a few Neo-Nazis? Celebrating the traditional riots on the first of May in Kreuzberg? Spraying ACAB on a cop car, or a wall?
A lot of it is armchair activism. Certainly subject to the usual signaling spirals. You don't convince anyone that you are the hot shit by being a moderate on the internet. There is probably three to five OOMs more people willing to endorse deadly violence in memes and comments than there people willing to even commit property damage personally. Still, it can give the odd homicidal member the impression that the community endorses their violence. Which it does, verbally, just not by revealed preference.
The other group identity one might liken Antifa to is Anonymous. Both are very much grass root things. There is no Antifa pope who consecrates or excommunicates bishops (who then consecrate priests (who then baptize believers into Antifa)).
Exploit some shitty website, post about it on 4chan using the Anonymous logo: congratulations, you are now Anonymous. Buy a button with the red and black flag, go to a protest wearing a black hoodie, or commit some petty property crime and upload a picture on indymedia (or whatever kids use this century): congratulations, you are now Antifa.
It is more a category than a group, really.
More options
Context Copy link
This is a great analogy. It always really irritates me to see left-wingers engage in their standard disingenuous rhetoric to run interference for Antifa, only for right-wingers to completely fumble the argument by misunderstanding the nature of the problem.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
It's a still a thing. I'm just comparing its presence now to 2020 and not seeing much. They been subsumed by generic normie protesting and now I only hear about them as a boogeyman from boomers.
I thought the fiction was that they exist, but they're the good guys, it says it right there in the name.
More options
Context Copy link
They're supporters.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link