Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?
This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.
Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Well, maybe we've had enough about European-American relations for the past week. Let's talk about European-European relations!
We know a lot about gender imbalances in China, hikikomori in Japan, 4B in Korea, and Americans screeching in existential terror at every element of the opposite sex on social media. It seems like many of the most developed parts of the world are struggling to maintain stable relationship norms, and men and women are opting out of relationships altogether at unprecedented rates. That obviously prompts the question: what about Europe?
Europeans: how do you feel about the dating and marriage situation in your part of the world? Do men and women generally couple up ok? Have dating apps caused damage? Are people isolated and on social media, or do romantic connections and friendships form more easily? More philosophically, do men and women in your country generally feel the opposite sex is trustworthy, or do they see them as more dangerous than helpful? Are there tensions over gender norms, or have people where you're from settled on a new accommodation for the relationship between men and women?
For gen Z, the situation is increasingly hookup centered. Some people are well suited for that and are thriving with an abundance of willing partners. Many pretend to be fine with it, but seem like they would be doing much better in a culture where the purpose of going out was to find a life long partner. You have to practice a degree of detachment. Sex is supposed to be an enjoyable activity that does not necessarily mean anything in the long run, and you are not supposed to fall for someone who you have only spent a single night with. That someone chose to sleep with you does not at all indicate that they won't spend next Friday night with someone else, and you should be able to mostly shrug it off. Expectations of exclusivity easily take a few weeks to months to develop.
Since sex often comes before love, being sexually attractive is extremely important. You sleep with each other and then you see if something develops. This is important, because it runs contrary to what one might otherwise expect: That you find someone with good husband/wife qualities, and then date them to see if attraction develops over time.
This heavily favors the charismatic, outgoing, and self confident people who are good at emotional decoupling. It also helps explain why going to the gym is so popular. Those whose attractive qualities are less immediately obvious, or who want to build a closer connection before sex, tend to stay single for quite a long time even if they are actively looking. Admittedly, I have no idea if this was always the case.
I am not sure if dating apps have done damage. The main issue is the lack of places for young people to organically meet and pair up. Apps, parties, and night clubs are the most common avenues. If you for some reason do not like those, then your options are extremely limited. To the point where even those who dislike going out to party will still do so, as they perceive it as the main way of partnering up.
Tensions over gender norms mostly exist online, or in very left wing environments. Showing distaste for the opposite gender in public is usually frowned upon, especially in social gatherings. Like self-made-human says, this is considered normal. It is something most people accept and deal with, even if they privately prefer things to be different.
"Alexa, describe my personal romantic hellscape, be sure to tailor it to demand the exact opposite of my personal preferences as the price for entrance."
Interesting that this isn't just a problem in the U.S. For some reason I assumed that the social scene for 20 and 30 somethings was still somewhat hopping in Europe. They seem to brag about walkable communities and friendlier social norms. At least parts of it.
I have bent over backwards to try and host spaces for people to hang out casually and meet without much expectations but also clearance to flirt, and somehow I virtually NEVER (like, once or twice in the past year?) get invited to spaces hosted by other people.
So maybe a combination of fewer 'third spaces,' (or the third spaces being too costly for young folk!) people not having spaces large enough to host others, AND a generalized decline in 'hosting' as a skill people develop at all?
A lot of problems urbanist types attribute to a lack of "walkable" communities are not fixed by making communities "walkable".
More options
Context Copy link
Where do you even find single people to invite to these things? Every party I've been to in the past five years has been couples plus a few sad single dudes.
Hahahahahahaaa oh its a challenge.
The core group of people I invite go to my gym, which is a mix of single and coupled people, and I try to invite the most agreeable sorts to come and leverage that to get some of the flightier ones to show. I find mediocre success.
You seem to notice the same trend I have. It is very hard to cajole any decently attractive single lady out to an event unless they have reassurances there are other ladies there. And that becomes a Catch-22.
So when I try to play mastermind, I invite out the couples who are friends with the single ladies so I can then invite the single ladies and reassure them "Oh X and Y are coming too!"
I begin to pick up on certain dynamics. As in Abby won't show up unless Britney is also there, but Britney only shows up if Charlie is going, and Charlie and Derek are best friends so if Charlie's there then Derek is likely to show, and Derek is a bit of a loser so he kinda deters others from coming but you gotta invite Charlie so Britney will so show Abby will show, and risk Derek being there too.
I give up on trying to orchestrate things precisely, but just be as strong a 'center of gravity' as I can so hopefully I can pull people into my orbit through pleasant but persistent pressure.
Anyway, all of this has led me to realize why Club Promoters have such an 'important' job. Keeping a roster of hotties who will actually show up if you text them so you can reliably promise attractive women will be at your event, which instantly raises the profile because now its more appealing for other attractive single ladies to arrive, and of course men will flock there if they can be in the presence of pretty women.
Hot single ladies are an ideal nucleus to build an event around, I'd wager, but they're also not the type to lift a damn finger themselves, and they have options so its always finicky to get even one to show, let alone 6 or more.
I thought though that playing matchmaker has traditionally been a social role assumed by older women, not by men like you.
Me I'm just trying to promote an environment where connections can happen.
I don't really try to suggest who should pair off with whom, although I'll sometimes nudge a guy to shoot a shot if I think he's in the clear.
Its important for more than just romantic connections anyway. Gotta have people rubbing elbows and talking to figure out if there's beneficial arrangements to be made.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Just want to say, you're doing god's work and you'll get your reward in heaven (but probably not in this life).
I get small rewards in this life. I don't claim to be completely altruistic when I do this.
The event I hosted this past Saturday (UFC 324 watch party) was a success overall, and I have a decent number of leftover snacks to munch on for the week. People love to bring beer to the event (even though I supply plenty) so I have a beer fridge that literally never runs dry and a couple stacks of various beverages on standby.
I am Quixotically DEFYING the new social order that arose Post-Covid. There WAS a time when people would just host small gatherings spontaneously on regular enough basis that you could usually have one to go to every other weekend. After Covid nuked this and people got used to food delivery and vidya at home, everyone's energy level for both hosting and going out seemed cut in half and they haven't even tried to recover it?
But to the extent my goal is to re-awaken the local social life and inspire others to also host in their spaces, I'm clearly not making much progress.
In the friend group's main chat, people like to semi-obviously hint when they would like to do some event or other, which then falls on me to make the actual plan and demand others' commitments to it so it actually happens. I do some operant conditioning and lavish praise on anyone who actually puts forth and executes on event ideas themselves, and I make SURE to show up to those and raise the energy level.
I will not go quietly into the night. At the very least, give people the experience of socializing so those skills don't devolve.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
It depends a lot on your age. 20 somethings and 30 somethings don't mix all that much. What I described above mostly holds true for those in their mid twenties and younger, with more options for those between 30 and 50. For some reason, young people are just not that interested in doing stuff organized by people much older than them, or in hobbies that require them to follow a set schedule. Older folks will happily invite younger people into their spaces, but when mostly everyone is at least 10 years older than you (or the activity is dominated by one gender), there isn't a lot of room for romance.
That said, you can still find mixed-gender activites with room for socializing, even if you are young. However, they can be few and far between, require more initiative to find, or are specific to certain hobbies. And even then, the hookup-centered nature of things persists.
This sounds about right. I am not sure people necessarily perceive the value in developing hosting skills, and those who do, might be disappointed with how hard it can be to get people to commit. It is a shame though, as good hosts are generally pretty popular within their communities.
I call this the “magical internet box” phenomenon. Much easier to just hang out at home than to sign up for something. Much as I’m critical of the attitude, I know that I’m shaped by it, as an introverted zoomer.
Your account lines up uncannily well with my experience in the US, as do most of the other responses. It seems like the social effects of modernity and the internet are broadly similar everywhere.
Yeah. I just significantly updated my priors on the "problem" with current social norms stemming primarily from the phones, the apps, and the algorithms.
Still reserving a lot of space for Covid just nuking people's social skills in general, though. The phones might just be what is 'locking' them into a bad equilibrium.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I've seen a bit of this. Millenials could be flakey but generally apologetic if they miss something they said they'd go to.
Gen Z just goes radio silent.
YES.
For whatever reason (especially for the young) they want to maintain optionality all the way up to the last minute.
If I were a less disciplined (and stubborn) person I'd have given up hosting anyone but immediate friends like a year ago.
And hell, the reason I'm willing to host is to make it cheap enough that younger folks don't have to worry about coming out and running up a tab!
I'm never completely sure if my competition are events hosted by others or literally just watching streaming shows at home and Doordash.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link