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PaperclipPerfector  1mo ago (text post)   3022 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for January 25, 2026

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This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

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Well, maybe we've had enough about European-American relations for the past week. Let's talk about European-European relations!

We know a lot about gender imbalances in China, hikikomori in Japan, 4B in Korea, and Americans screeching in existential terror at every element of the opposite sex on social media. It seems like many of the most developed parts of the world are struggling to maintain stable relationship norms, and men and women are opting out of relationships altogether at unprecedented rates. That obviously prompts the question: what about Europe?

Europeans: how do you feel about the dating and marriage situation in your part of the world? Do men and women generally couple up ok? Have dating apps caused damage? Are people isolated and on social media, or do romantic connections and friendships form more easily? More philosophically, do men and women in your country generally feel the opposite sex is trustworthy, or do they see them as more dangerous than helpful? Are there tensions over gender norms, or have people where you're from settled on a new accommodation for the relationship between men and women?

Anecdotally, most of my old friends from Ireland (all late 20s/early 30s) are geared towards settling down now.

Some are single due to recent breakups, some (like me) who didn't become programmers have to make some decent money before getting married. Out of around 15 people in the last 2 years: 3 marriages (all have had kids or are currently pregnant), 2 engagements, 4 in long term relationships.

The weddings are great fun and since we're scattered across Europe and America now it's basically the only time the whole friend group can get together. We even helped set up the 30 year old virgin gamer with the bride's sister last year and that relationship seems to be going well.

I live in France now. The dating scene is insanely easy for a guy compared to Ireland, especially if you learn the language. Bigger cities probably account for a lot of it, but French people are more likely to make friends with strangers than stick to their friends from secondary school (like I did). They still do the latter but it's less of a barrier than in Ireland.

If you want to just hookup it's not hard, but my French friends seem to be as into committed relationships as the Irish. My girlfriend is French and judging by her friends they're the same with one difference. A lot of young French couples will get Pacs before getting married. I don't know what it entails exactly but it seems like it just covers some legal and financial stuff and the celebration is a lot smaller than a wedding. I'll have to see for myself what this leads to but it seems like it'll add a few years of delay to marriage and children.

Bigger cities probably account for a lot of it, but French people are more likely to make friends with strangers than stick to their friends from secondary school (like I did). They still do the latter but it's less of a barrier than in Ireland.

That's interesting - growing up in the UK it was generally understood that the Irish were generally more social and more open to chatting with strangers on a night out than ourselves.

That is also true, you can still make friends for a night easily enough even if you're not going to follow up and try to see them next week.

There's a phrase along the lines of "quick to be friendly, slow to be friends" that describes it. Of course if an Irish person moves abroad they're likely also going to try and make some actual new friends.

some (like me) who didn't become programmers have to make some decent money before getting married

Why?

I'm working as a chef not making much money and I don't have the hang of the language yet. I've got a purely French speaking job lined up in April and a network of chefs who'd give me better work if I can prove myself some more but for now it's too precarious. I'd want to at least be able to promise that I will stay in the country instead of going back to Ireland to look for work after all.

My girlfriend works in nuclear physics where they have 2 year contracts, she couldn't really follow me to Ireland anytime soon.

My girlfriend works in nuclear physics

Like in a power plant? Have ye seen this film? Highly recommended.

No I haven't, thanks for the recommendation.

She's not working in a power plant, more research/engineering on detecting subatomic particles. I never studied physics so a lot of it is beyond me, but the projects seem more on the practical side. Stuff like building reliable detectors for different particles with limited resources, helping the Japanese with Fukushima etc. There was one person there who figured out how to use phone screens to triage radiation doses in a nuclear accident or attack.

Wow, so she's a genius? Fair play.

For gen Z, the situation is increasingly hookup centered. Some people are well suited for that and are thriving with an abundance of willing partners. Many pretend to be fine with it, but seem like they would be doing much better in a culture where the purpose of going out was to find a life long partner. You have to practice a degree of detachment. Sex is supposed to be an enjoyable activity that does not necessarily mean anything in the long run, and you are not supposed to fall for someone who you have only spent a single night with. That someone chose to sleep with you does not at all indicate that they won't spend next Friday night with someone else, and you should be able to mostly shrug it off. Expectations of exclusivity easily take a few weeks to months to develop.

Since sex often comes before love, being sexually attractive is extremely important. You sleep with each other and then you see if something develops. This is important, because it runs contrary to what one might otherwise expect: That you find someone with good husband/wife qualities, and then date them to see if attraction develops over time.

This heavily favors the charismatic, outgoing, and self confident people who are good at emotional decoupling. It also helps explain why going to the gym is so popular. Those whose attractive qualities are less immediately obvious, or who want to build a closer connection before sex, tend to stay single for quite a long time even if they are actively looking. Admittedly, I have no idea if this was always the case.

I am not sure if dating apps have done damage. The main issue is the lack of places for young people to organically meet and pair up. Apps, parties, and night clubs are the most common avenues. If you for some reason do not like those, then your options are extremely limited. To the point where even those who dislike going out to party will still do so, as they perceive it as the main way of partnering up.

Tensions over gender norms mostly exist online, or in very left wing environments. Showing distaste for the opposite gender in public is usually frowned upon, especially in social gatherings. Like self-made-human says, this is considered normal. It is something most people accept and deal with, even if they privately prefer things to be different.

"Alexa, describe my personal romantic hellscape, be sure to tailor it to demand the exact opposite of my personal preferences as the price for entrance."

The main issue is the lack of places for young people to organically meet and pair up.

Interesting that this isn't just a problem in the U.S. For some reason I assumed that the social scene for 20 and 30 somethings was still somewhat hopping in Europe. They seem to brag about walkable communities and friendlier social norms. At least parts of it.

I have bent over backwards to try and host spaces for people to hang out casually and meet without much expectations but also clearance to flirt, and somehow I virtually NEVER (like, once or twice in the past year?) get invited to spaces hosted by other people.

So maybe a combination of fewer 'third spaces,' (or the third spaces being too costly for young folk!) people not having spaces large enough to host others, AND a generalized decline in 'hosting' as a skill people develop at all?

They seem to brag about walkable communities

A lot of problems urbanist types attribute to a lack of "walkable" communities are not fixed by making communities "walkable".

I have bent over backwards to try and host spaces for people to hang out casually and meet without much expectations but also clearance to flirt, and somehow I virtually NEVER (like, once or twice in the past year?) get invited to spaces hosted by other people.

Where do you even find single people to invite to these things? Every party I've been to in the past five years has been couples plus a few sad single dudes.

Hahahahahahaaa oh its a challenge.

The core group of people I invite go to my gym, which is a mix of single and coupled people, and I try to invite the most agreeable sorts to come and leverage that to get some of the flightier ones to show. I find mediocre success.

You seem to notice the same trend I have. It is very hard to cajole any decently attractive single lady out to an event unless they have reassurances there are other ladies there. And that becomes a Catch-22.

So when I try to play mastermind, I invite out the couples who are friends with the single ladies so I can then invite the single ladies and reassure them "Oh X and Y are coming too!"

I begin to pick up on certain dynamics. As in Abby won't show up unless Britney is also there, but Britney only shows up if Charlie is going, and Charlie and Derek are best friends so if Charlie's there then Derek is likely to show, and Derek is a bit of a loser so he kinda deters others from coming but you gotta invite Charlie so Britney will so show Abby will show, and risk Derek being there too.

I give up on trying to orchestrate things precisely, but just be as strong a 'center of gravity' as I can so hopefully I can pull people into my orbit through pleasant but persistent pressure.

Anyway, all of this has led me to realize why Club Promoters have such an 'important' job. Keeping a roster of hotties who will actually show up if you text them so you can reliably promise attractive women will be at your event, which instantly raises the profile because now its more appealing for other attractive single ladies to arrive, and of course men will flock there if they can be in the presence of pretty women.

Hot single ladies are an ideal nucleus to build an event around, I'd wager, but they're also not the type to lift a damn finger themselves, and they have options so its always finicky to get even one to show, let alone 6 or more.

I thought though that playing matchmaker has traditionally been a social role assumed by older women, not by men like you.

Me I'm just trying to promote an environment where connections can happen.

I don't really try to suggest who should pair off with whom, although I'll sometimes nudge a guy to shoot a shot if I think he's in the clear.

Its important for more than just romantic connections anyway. Gotta have people rubbing elbows and talking to figure out if there's beneficial arrangements to be made.

I have bent over backwards to try and host spaces for people to hang out casually and meet without much expectations but also clearance to flirt, and somehow I virtually NEVER (like, once or twice in the past year?) get invited to spaces hosted by other people.

Just want to say, you're doing god's work and you'll get your reward in heaven (but probably not in this life).

I get small rewards in this life. I don't claim to be completely altruistic when I do this.

The event I hosted this past Saturday (UFC 324 watch party) was a success overall, and I have a decent number of leftover snacks to munch on for the week. People love to bring beer to the event (even though I supply plenty) so I have a beer fridge that literally never runs dry and a couple stacks of various beverages on standby.

I am Quixotically DEFYING the new social order that arose Post-Covid. There WAS a time when people would just host small gatherings spontaneously on regular enough basis that you could usually have one to go to every other weekend. After Covid nuked this and people got used to food delivery and vidya at home, everyone's energy level for both hosting and going out seemed cut in half and they haven't even tried to recover it?

But to the extent my goal is to re-awaken the local social life and inspire others to also host in their spaces, I'm clearly not making much progress.

In the friend group's main chat, people like to semi-obviously hint when they would like to do some event or other, which then falls on me to make the actual plan and demand others' commitments to it so it actually happens. I do some operant conditioning and lavish praise on anyone who actually puts forth and executes on event ideas themselves, and I make SURE to show up to those and raise the energy level.

I will not go quietly into the night. At the very least, give people the experience of socializing so those skills don't devolve.

Interesting that this isn't just a problem in the U.S. For some reason I assumed that the social scene for 20 and 30 somethings was still somewhat hopping in Europe. The seem to brag about walkable communities and friendlier social norms. At least parts of it.

It depends a lot on your age. 20 somethings and 30 somethings don't mix all that much. What I described above mostly holds true for those in their mid twenties and younger, with more options for those between 30 and 50. For some reason, young people are just not that interested in doing stuff organized by people much older than them, or in hobbies that require them to follow a set schedule. Older folks will happily invite younger people into their spaces, but when mostly everyone is at least 10 years older than you (or the activity is dominated by one gender), there isn't a lot of room for romance.

That said, you can still find mixed-gender activites with room for socializing, even if you are young. However, they can be few and far between, require more initiative to find, or are specific to certain hobbies. And even then, the hookup-centered nature of things persists.

So maybe a combination of fewer 'third spaces,' people not having spaces large enough to host others, AND a generalized decline in 'hosting' as a skill people develop at all?

This sounds about right. I am not sure people necessarily perceive the value in developing hosting skills, and those who do, might be disappointed with how hard it can be to get people to commit. It is a shame though, as good hosts are generally pretty popular within their communities.

For some reason, young people are just not that interested in doing stuff organized by people much older than them, or in hobbies that require them to follow a set schedule.

I call this the “magical internet box” phenomenon. Much easier to just hang out at home than to sign up for something. Much as I’m critical of the attitude, I know that I’m shaped by it, as an introverted zoomer.

Your account lines up uncannily well with my experience in the US, as do most of the other responses. It seems like the social effects of modernity and the internet are broadly similar everywhere.

It seems like the social effects of modernity and the internet are broadly similar everywhere.

Yeah. I just significantly updated my priors on the "problem" with current social norms stemming primarily from the phones, the apps, and the algorithms.

Still reserving a lot of space for Covid just nuking people's social skills in general, though. The phones might just be what is 'locking' them into a bad equilibrium.

For some reason, young people are just not that interested in doing stuff organized by people much older than them, or in hobbies that require them to follow a set schedule

I've seen a bit of this. Millenials could be flakey but generally apologetic if they miss something they said they'd go to.

Gen Z just goes radio silent.

I am not sure people necessarily perceive the value in developing hosting skills, and those who do, might be disappointed with how hard it can be to get people to commit.

YES.

For whatever reason (especially for the young) they want to maintain optionality all the way up to the last minute.

If I were a less disciplined (and stubborn) person I'd have given up hosting anyone but immediate friends like a year ago.

And hell, the reason I'm willing to host is to make it cheap enough that younger folks don't have to worry about coming out and running up a tab!

I'm never completely sure if my competition are events hosted by others or literally just watching streaming shows at home and Doordash.

Depends a lot on where you look.

Urban academic is depressing, mostly because of the combination of the gender mismatch (almost 2x as many women as men nowadays AFAIK, certainly at least at my medically oriented university) and most women nevertheless expecting their partner to be university educated as a bare minimum, and there is also aggressive political filtering. There are still plenty of well-adjusted couples of course, but also just many clearly unhappy single women, often with blatant dysfunctional coping behaviour. A lot of hostility/resentment towards men in general, too. Gender norms around kids are also a bit drama-heavy; The women all want to theoretically continue their career while simultaneously in practice staying home with the kids as long as possible. And when it predictably doesn't work out, somehow the man is at fault. All very typically western cosmopolitan, I guess. The men aren't perfect, either, of course; but what strikes me is that the worst are primarily egotistical (sleeping around, generally doing stuff with no concern for their partner), while the worst women are self-hurting dysfunctional.

The urban poor, of course, are awful, but they're awful in every other way as well, so it's not particularly surprising.

Rural middle class, at least where I'm from and from what I heard from a few acquaintances' country background, is doing well. Dating is still mostly from work, partying or extended friend groups; App is the option of last resort and not held in high regard. For an example, my main old school clique is 15 people, of which 2 seem headed for permanent bachelorhood (one of which almost surely is a closeted gay, why he doesn't come out is a mystery to us all, we really don't mind), 1 has had relationship but I'm not sure currently, everyone else is in a stable relationship (well, one is an incorrigible philanderer, but his current relationship has been a few years now, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt). We have 12 kids now afaik, as usual mostly the girls but the guys are also moving after. We're early thirties, so no worries from me that we'll hit 2+ TFR. In my second old school clique, 4 people, everyone has been in stable relationships for ages now and two of the others just now had their first child, too. They also intend to have more so again no worries. I've lost contact with most of my acquaintances from school of course, but if I randomly see them they almost always have a partner and often have kids, too. Gender norms are pretty easy here, women can do what they want, but when the kids come they want to be mom anyway.

But this is millenials. I have little idea how gen z is doing, to be honest.

Is such a lopsided sex ratio usual for a medical university?

It is so bad that some disciplines (ex: Peds) have an explicit and public pro male affirmative action for residency

Yes. It's almost universal at this point. Even when I entered med school (ten years ago? What the fuck), it was already 45:55 in favor of women in India. I recall seeing something like 40:60 in the States today, and even higher in the UK.

I'm not sure how much of it is affirmative action (it's too common to be the decisive factor), and how much of it is women just being better at maintaining good grades and grinding at exams. In some fields like gynecology, younger male doctors are on the verge of being endangered. Only a few branches, like orthopedics, remain solidly male. I don't know a single female urologist, though I'm sure they exist.

At least in germany, medicine as a whole has been 60%+ female, tendency upwards. Specialty study programs tend to be similarly, or even more lopsided: I studied a special "applied math in biology and medicine" course, which was around 20 women to 4 guys (admittedly partially due to many guys dropping out in the first semester). Women don't like math, but at least a few are good at it, and if you give it a focus on something they actually do like... The same goes for several specialty courses we have here on medical / biophysics or -informatics, even engineering, all of which naively may sound male-dominated, but from my impression were also 60%+ female. Just attach "medical" (or "media", for that matter) to any course name, and the women will flock to you, apparently.

Then you have the degrees which used to be Ausbildung, such as midwifery, and some other such as nutritional biology, which combine very low standards and a lopsided gender ratio.

I have a small friend group in Germany and it's not too different from USA. One lucky guy, that found his match in university, proposed at 27 and is on track for decent family life. The rest are a mix of being completely given up on dating (not actively looking) to perpetually being in short term relationships. One difference from Americans is disdain for dating apps. My german friends see use of them as a signal of promiscuity, so women on there are completely discarded from being long term relationship candidates (short term is fine though). I don't know if this view is unique to just the people I know, but it's an interesting distinction.

Does Scotland count? I can tell you that the social fabric is scuffed, dude.

While the actual numbers are probably lower, it feels like a third of the women there around my age are single moms, and another half unmarried even if they're in longterm relationships.

(I've learned the hard way to never assume that anyone with kids is necessarily married, or ever married, which is a safe assumption to make in India)

That being said, I haven't noticed any obvious tension between the sexes. This is the new normal, even if it strikes me as dysfunctional. The women are generally not afraid of the men, and vice versa. I haven't really seen much of a dedicated incel community, presuming there's anywhere that actually exists. Most people seem content with things.

Edit:

It's worth noting the stark class differences. The middle class usually does things the conventional way. But I seem to rub shoulders most commonly with people living in council housing (or at least they're the people most likely to invite a daft but friendly foreign doctor home from a pub) and oh boy.

It's worth noting the stark class differences. The middle class usually does things the conventional way. But I seem to rub shoulders most commonly with people living in council housing (or at least they're the people most likely to invite a daft but friendly foreign doctor home from a pub) and oh boy.

But that has been the case for decades, if not centuries (or ever?), and is the same in every developed country I'm aware of. Poors be trouble.

Oh boy? What craziness do you see there?

Where do I begin? People starting fist fights after a bit of Bolivian Nose Candy, someone showing off his Thai girlfriend from a village without electricity about half an hour before his actual Scottish girlfriend (likely underage) showed up to pick his drunk ass up, someone telling me about his lengthy run-ins with the law, and then telling me he's the good'un, since his dad literally murdered people with grenades over football fandom disputes.

I've been in a stranger's apartment at 6 am, desperately chugging coffee to stay awake, because I didn't trust them enough to pass out in front of them. Some schizo guy telling me about his fervent patriotism for India (it was the dude with the Thai girlfriend) and general distaste for Islam. He offered to volunteer for the Indian Army if war broke out with Pakistan, and I had to gently dissuade him, telling him that if there's one thing the country doesn't lack, it's manpower.

I have stories. I've written some of them up, but I'm sitting on them for a retirement memoir, or because the GMC might dislike my openness to experience. Good times, as long as you know where the exit is.

since his dad literally murdered people with grenades over football fandom disputes.

Go big or go home!

There isn't an 'incel' community anywhere, because that would entail the incels being a 'community', which they aren't.

There are at least two incel communities of non-negligible popularity: incels.is (discussion) and 4chan's /r9k/ board.

I'll keep that in mind when I stop by the local Warhammer outlet. Maybe I finally have the money for plastic crack...

I can't in good conscience advise you to play Warhammer. The game system itself isn't very good, and it'll put you in contact with...low-quality people. The only way to play Warhammer is to already have friends who play and join them, ideally 20+ years ago.

That's a shame, but I suppose the stigma around the hobby is there for a reason. I'm perfectly content reading the lore and playing the odd good video game that comes out.

It's an unfortunance that also applies to Magic, the Gathering. Expensive, and you'll probably be the coolest person in the room, which is not good.

I'd expected you to be a DIY enthusiast who'd sooner splurge on a high-precision 3D printer and pirated .STLs.

I've been tempted in the past, but back then, I didn't have the money. Now I do have the money, but I live in a shared apartment and I can't justify the hassle of setup and proper ventilation etc. Maybe a Bambu Labs at some point when I've got the room, it's probably cheaper than buying a full Knight Lance or a Forgeworld Titan.

Hell, my preferred way to play 40k would be something like Tabletop Simulator if I wanted to stick to the original rules, or even better, the upcoming Total War: Warhammer 40k game. It's one thing to 3D print the minis, it's another to paint them (how many coats? And how much does that cost?) and then find people to play with. Some GW stores tend to take a hardline stance against third party miniatures, or people hanging around in their stores without ever buying anything.

Don't do it, man. That way leads to homelessness and giving out handjobs to people in exchange for a squad of space marines.

Hey, I presume that providing handjobs at least fixes the incel problem? I'll jizz for AdMech with jezzails any day.

I understand. The Omnissiah's work is demanding, but rewarding. Just make sure to apply the sacred unguents so there's no chafing when you give out the handjobs!

Are online communities a thing? Are we a community?

I'd say so. I've met one Mottizen IRL, and would happily stop by and say hi to others should our paths cross.

For Russia, the traditional issue is low male quality. It's a vicious cycle of men doing "stupid men stuff" like drinking, fighting, committing crimes and working dangerous jobs, creating a scarcity of men that allows the survivors to get away with doing more stupid men stuff.

For decades, the solution to this problem was "women settling for less and/or looksmaxxing". You know, the "average Russian couple" meme with Shrek and a sex doll. These days women just don't settle down. They have as many kids as they can afford to raise alone since the divorce rate is too high (zero to one), so if they cannot afford children, they just don't marry anyone. They date around (earning the derogatory title of "plateress" from the men they eat out with), just in case there's someone worthy on the dating market, but no longer think they have to settle down by any due date.

This generally seems to be one case where the sex ratio is severely distorted in one direction or the other; women’s general willingness to marry is eroded as a consequence either way. One Manosphere blogger described it thus:

“Why should I think about marriage? All guys are available.”

“Why should I think about marriage? No guys are available.”

They're all psychological colonies of whatever the US PMC thinks. Fuck's sake, Finland holds BLM rallies. You're all living in America.

Just found this in an older discussion that was linked to in the current thread.

@JTarrou

That guy sounds like he has his finger on it. Also sounds angry and arrogant, which is par for the course.

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