Be advised: this thread is not for serious in-depth discussion of weighty topics (we have a link for that), this thread is not for anything Culture War related. This thread is for Fun. You got jokes? Share 'em. You got silly questions? Ask 'em.
What is this place?
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
If in doubt, please post it!
Rules
- Courtesy
- Content
- Engagement
- When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
- Proactively provide evidence in proportion to how partisan and inflammatory your claim might be.
- Accept temporary bans as a time-out, and don't attempt to rejoin the conversation until it's lifted.
- Don't attempt to build consensus or enforce ideological conformity.
- Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
- The Wildcard Rule
- The Metarule

Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Candidates for most agonizing recent song?
I submit for your consideration Lucinda Williams’ World Gone Wrong, a shambling eulogy for the Current Moment. Naturally, it’s seeing a lot of airtime on my local radio.
While I could provide any number of objections to its lyricism or production, I’d rather take a page from Clench Racing’s lesser-known cousin: Complete the Poem. Use your skill and judgment to complete the following lines.
If you need a hint, imagine the most drawn-out warble possible. The relevant rhymes should jump right into your brain.
I had to turn it off after less than a minute. Good job.
More options
Context Copy link
I wasn't ready for the AAAA rhyme scheme.
More options
Context Copy link
A lot of people getting put on the street
It's getting harder to stay off the street
He comes home every night past tents on his street
And wonders how much longer till he's out on the street
More options
Context Copy link
A lot of people getting put on the street
It’s getting harder to skeet
He comes home every night to beat
And wonders how much longer he can use my feet
to beat his meat surely.
More options
Context Copy link
No, no. This is soulless protest music for gen-X, not gen-Z.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I really can't come up with a clear answer to this. Pretty much anything by Tate McCrae or Sabrina Carpenter or virtually anybody else in this new generation of pop artists is about as aggressively painful as it gets, to be honest. After a while everything melts away into the same homogenised corpus of liquidised shit that is modern pop music. It's virtually all irredeemable, there's no sense talking about "worse" or "better" in such a context.
At least stuff that's unintentionally but parodically bad such as Liz Phair's lyrical and musical masterpieces (Bollywood, U Hate It) are fun to listen to, these songs can't even aspire to that.
Tate McRae's voice is so annoying. She's lucky she's hot.
I watched one video, and I'm still not sure how much of that is her voice. I know I should have gotten inured to modern over-AutoTuned production over the decades, but 𝅘𝅥𝅮𝅘𝅥𝅮 I really don't think I'm strong enough! 𝅘𝅥𝅮𝅘𝅥𝅮
She's got great taste in underwear, though.
Citation requested.
(I apologise, that was rather Reddit of me.)
My second YouTube search came up with the same top result, and far be it from me to refuse a polite request.
But I'm not making a third search. My kids occasionally use my YouTube account on our living room computer, and at some point I'd worry about the algorithm deciding that my current math/science/art balance needs more "art" and that my "artists" need fewer clothes.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
She's got that "heavy" kind of face that I'm really not a fan of.
I know what you mean by saying "heavy," but it's strange to look at photos of her face and be unable to identify what exactly the "heavy" is describing, or what a better description for it would be. Something about her jawline, nose, eyelids...?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
As much as I think we've lost something in the way of common culture -- when I was a kid we definitely all heard the same music -- I've gotta say it's nice to be almost entirely insulated from modern pop music. Sometimes I go to a grocery store or a restaurant and hear what's current and can only shake my head in despair and irritation, but for the most part I'm just free, free as a bird, and like it this way.
My musical consciousness was formed on early 2000's rap and hip hop music. My specific tastes were very niche after my sibling one day brought home a copy of Tech N9ne's Absolute Power CD for me to listen to. Hard to say whether my preferences "developed" into that or it simply hit all the right notes in the best ways for what I always gravitated towards.
Spending a period of your life growing up in the hood leaves you permanently acclimated to the culture of the underclass in certain ways, even though I never made an explicit initiation into that kind of life. I've been in social settings where people put it to me to play the music in my kind of playlist but there's a reason that stuff will never be played on the radio. Playing any kind of music that represents banging and repping a hood will get you shot in the wrong places. I always liked what they called "horrorcore," and the dark stuff.
I also grew up on all the standard classics and oldies as well. I used to like to listen to the NOW music CD's when they were still around. My tastes are varied across genres, but it remains dominated by one side. But even so, a lot of modern rap and hip hop I can't listen to.
More options
Context Copy link
Are you free as a bird or free as the wind blows?
More like Free Fallin
NB: Haven't watched the music video for a long time - it's such a 90's time capsule it hurts
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I rarely hear what's current at a restaurant, store, or coffee shop. 95% of the time it's classic rock, and being in any of those places more than 30 minutes means a 100% chance of hearing a Buckingham/Nicks-era Fleetwood Mac song.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
An Irish radio station recently polled their listeners on the greatest song of the twenty-first century so far. The winner was "Pink Pony Club" by Chappelle Roan. Jesus. It's not even her best song. Not "agonizing", just repetitive and irritating.
It wasn't a bad song until I had to listen to it 20 times a day. I predict that in 25 years it will have the same status as "Dreamlover" by Mariah Carey, i.e. it's so ubiquitous that everyone collectively gets tired of it and agrees to never speak of it again.
At least you didn't have to listen to Cotton Eyed Joe.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link