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Notes -
BDSM relationships are rational and adaptive for (some? many?) modern women
[Epimistic Status: Might just be the girls I date]
Oh boy! Another post on gender and romantic dynamics. Discussions on this topic here tend to go in a few predictable ways, and unfortunately there's a frequent vibe of posters here just not liking women. Leaving aside the whole hypergamy bit, there's frequent sneers about girls being attracted to partners that will mistreat them. This attraction is attributed to two evo psych explanations:
Men with aggressive and dark triad traits are more likely to succeed in gathering resources and accruing power. This makes them valuable mates, but also makes them high risks for physical abuse, infidelity, etc. There's something good correlated with something bad.
Females evolutionarily were frequently coerced by mates. They often didn't get to even choose their mates at all. This goes back all the way to chimps and monkeys. The ones that tolerated the abuse better were more likely to survive and reproduce. One of the pathways to tolerate abuse better is to enjoy it at some level. If you can't really control whether you get hit or not, it's more adaptive to get off on it than have a mental breakdown. The same goes for submissive behavior. Once you're wired deep down to enjoy something, you're going to start seeking it out.
I broadly think these two points are true, and I still like women. I think given submissive and masochistic impulses are wired in, the rational move is satify them while minimizing damage. BDSM relationships (which I'm using here as a catchall for everything from hard power dynamics to good 'ole slapping and choking in bed) are a social technology that fills that role.
Women want things in a partner. They also have different reproductive strategies that don't always neatly coincide. Pretty boys will make pretty daughters. Kind and caring partners are more likely to invest in you and your offspring. Dark triad partners are more likely to be disproportionately successful, but they might hurt you in the process. Straight up abusive partners just need to be survived, and some level of massochism helps.
Some of these reproductive strategies clearly work out a lot better than others. It's much better to end up with a pretty boy than an abusive one, but instincts were evolved when mate choice was much more constrained. Leaving a bad partner is much more of an option now, rendering some of the survival instincts counter produtive. So what's a gal to do with that masochistic drive? Get with a decent partner than have them do BDSM. Much better to be choked by the pretty boy that loves you than the dark triad guy that will actually kill you.
Backdoor on Feminism?
So here's my fringe, underdeveloped thought. Feminism and "womens liberation" broadly decreased the amount women had to submit to their partners. A lot of women liked that change. Some more reactionary ones didn't and explicitly volunteer for more trad lifestyles. I think a lot of women have mixed feelings. They really value the practical gains in freedom in some areas. But in others they didn't really want to stop being submissive. Western blue tribe women are seeped in the idea that feminism is good, and wanting to roll things back is bad. BDSM offers a figleaf for that. It's culture is soaked in the language of consent, so it doesn't contradict feminism. Yep, wearing a collar and being your man's slave is empowering. BDSM offers a framework for picking and choosing what bits of power to keep and return. You can still have your own job, but do everything you husband says at home.
My anecdotes
I had an ex who I was keeping on a leash. She really liked being given orders. One day I asked her to fetch me food a few too many times and she said "I wanted to be your girlfriend, not your servant!" I learned then when girls want to be submissive it's more like they want to be your pet than your maid.
I had two separate exes who ran away from abusive partners and then ended up with me. They were sensible enough to flee at the first sign of trouble. They liked me a fair amount at first, but when I introduced them to BDSM they became enthralled with me. I think early in the relationship were satisfying the Pretty/Caring strategy. Once BDSM hit the mix they felt like they were satisfying Pretty/Caring/Dominant. I think the BDSM community downplays the relationship with domestic violence for PR reasons. There's definitely something there.
It’s basically an open secret nowadays that chicks are turned on by getting violently dominated and degraded. See, for example, the “Choke Me, Daddy” universe of memes. One could also see what literature written By Women For Women looks like. It tends to look inconveniently like Fifty Shades of Grey.
This shouldn’t be a surprise, as it has been long Noticed that women are turned on by nonconsensual escalation or even outright rape, that rape is one of the most common female fantasies, if not the most common. 31% to 62% of women have rape fantasies. Women write hamster-wheeling essays about the topic: “I didn’t want to be aroused by my sexual assault but I was.”
While the rational and/or adaptational element is hard to prove, Noticers have drawn links to the Sexy Son hypothesis, that women prefer men who will leave sexually successful sons. A similar phenomenon that has been well-Noticed is Stockholm Syndrome and War Brides, the hypothesis that women’s mental hardware favor those who conquer them.
Elsewhere in this thread, @HereAndGone2 gave the token effort to blame women’s preferences on men in defending women’s Wonderfulness, as is commonly done by women or male allies so women can save face. Surely it can’t be that women are turned on by getting violently dominated wnd degraded, so it must be men and their pornbrains unilaterally inflicting their perversions upon the hapless victims that are their wives and girlfriends. Another common example that I recently wrote about would be the seethe and cope around the massive female desire for male height, blaming male shittiness and insecurities for women wanting a daddy they can look up to.
Yet, in contrast to the well-trodden copium, female porn viewers are more likely than male porn viewers to opt for “Hardcore” porn on Pornhub, at a rate of +75% and a rate of +63% for “Rough Sex” porn. Given women are about 38% of Pornhub viewers, this would imply that in absolute terms, women exceed men when it comes to Hardcore porn and match men when it comes to Rough Sex porn viewership. Women also “[say] that they orgasm much faster when they have rough sex”:
In responding to @HereAndGone2, @Iconochasm remarked that “FWIW, men commonly report that women are the ones who asked them to try it.” @falling-star recounted that “Every girl I've done that with has been the first to request it. Some of them were extremely insistent.”
This was my experience as well, that it was a girl who steered me further toward the dark side, a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. Possible TMI to follow, but we’re all besties here.
As a young adult, I had long been aware of the female penchant for getting dominated and degraded in bed—including from ample personal experience—but I remained stubborn at the time in my refusal to accept that violence beyond vanilla acts like hair-pulling and spanking would be well-received. Sure, chicks might like getting spanked, facialed, their hair pulled; doing things like rimming, deepthroating, clean ass-to-mouth. But that doesn’t mean they would enjoy things like getting slapped, choked, spat on, pissed on, dirty ass-to-mouth, throat-fucked-until-vomiting, right? Any evidence otherwise would just be porn territory and men exaggerating their Lived Experiences with women… right?
Everything changed when the female nation attacked.
I was innocently in the middle of a one night (well, it was actually the afternoon) stand with a chick I had been texting with for a few months, but hadn’t visited her city for a while until then. While in bed she demanded I slap her in the face, repeating the request a few times—each time more insistent—before I was like “haha what, no—are you nuts?” She tried to verbally convince me for a bit more until slapping me in the face in an attempt to rile me up. I grabbed her wrists as she tried to land subsequent shots, manhandling her in continuing the trip to Pound Town, doing the usual vanilla things like hairpulling and spanking.
At no point did I slap her back in the face since I was still unsure of the female appetite for violence, still reluctant due to never-hit-a-girl instincts, nor did I want to provide positive reinforcement to a girl for slapping me. We parted ways more than amicably, and years later she still occasionally texts/DMs me asking when I’ll return to her city.
The experience gnawed at me though and caused me to question my handling of women for the first time in a long time (and the last time since then). Was I nerfing myself all this time by not providing chicks with the violent dominance and degradation they crave? Was I like Federer who stuck all too long with the 90-inch racket instead of upgrading to the 97-inch sooner? Do I need to add to my bag acts like slapping, choking, spitting on chicks’ faces and/or in their mouths?
On the other hand, I was also saying to myself “No way, no way. This is crazy,” like Neo after he opened his office high rise’s window, debating whether or not to climb onto the ledge.
Curiosity got the best of me and won out; I took the (p)ledge. I don’t recall if it was the next girl I banged or a few girls after, but I decided to YOLO and go for it on a first date at the AirBnB of the next city on my trip.
She initially insisted that I wear a condom and that she didn’t like oral sex; however, after a few rounds of slapping, choking, and spitting in her mouth, guess who was enthusiastically sucking dick and getting rawdogged? Damn, it was just like the prophecies foretold.
The next morning she cheerfully brushed her hair and applied make-up to cover up the bruising on her face that had begun. She said to me, “thank you, that was amazing” and gave me a kiss before heading off to her office job in the same clothes from the night before. Fortunately for her, it’s so common for chicks to thotmaxx with their office attire that a girl’s first date outfit need not standout in the office.
Still in somewhat denial, I repeated this experiment several times thereafter to increase the sample size For Science. Every time I gave it a go chicks loved it. Not only that, the further I pushed the envelope the better the reaction. Sigh. ben_affleck_smoking_a_cigarette.jpg
So to restate: She told you to use a condom and that she didn't want to fellate you, but you slapped, choked, and spat on her and then she acquiesced.
This sounds rather more like your thing than hers, though of course reported narratives are often misremembered and/ot relevant detail inadvertently left out.
Hail Mary attempt to Just-World and protect women's wonderfulness.
Admirable, but mistaken. However, without the admirable part.
In the comment I left, already there was recounting about the positive feedback from her in person. Much less the positive feedback that followed thereafter.
Always a pleasure, Sloot. Did you just assume the positive feedback beforehand? Or lucked into it?
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Let this bitter old hag congratulate you on successfully dodging rape and/or assault charges, if your lemans regularly showed up at work with bruises on their faces. Perhaps skipping from town to town and only hooking up with the freaks saved you there, but I think you still dodged a bullet and had immense luck.
Thank you, I suppose, self-identified bitter old hag. It's like the meme:
Young Man: I consent
Young Woman: I consent
Older Woman: I don't
Things may be more bleak than I imagined, if one has to be congratulated for consensual experiences with young women without false rape/assault accusations due to female mendacity or the institutional misandry of the State. You have some horseshoe/epic handshake potential with the ultra red/black-pilled.
Bruises were light, difficult to spot even if you were looking for them. Less ostensible than blush makeup or just regular blushing. And given the habit of young women to paint their faces, easily covered.
No True Non-freak.
You're still ducking that 31% to 62% of women have rape fantasies, that women orgasm faster during rough sex, that women regularly sploosh for female-oriented media like Fifty Shades of Grey and 365 Days, among other things.
Like I mentioned, as a man of science I repeated the experiment... if anything, only ramping things up.
So look, I am admit I am skeptical of your story (men lie about sex too, especially in self-aggrandizing ways, and it's so convenient that it turns out every woman you've fucked turns out to be exactly the kind of shameless slutwhore you are constantly saying all women are), but let's say we take this all at face value, all the women you've tried it with turned out to love being slapped, spit on, and throatfucked without asking. I mean, yes, I believe there are a non-trivial percentage of women who are into that.
But there are also a non-trivial percentage of women who aren't. Even taking your "31% to 62% of women have rape fantasies at face value" (you do know that those "rape fantasies" are usually more like 50 Shades of Grey and not like Clockwork Orange, right? i.e.., they are fantasizing about being pleasurably dominated by an attractive man while abdicating responsibility for their own choices, not about some rando violently assaulting them) - that means 38% to 69% don't.
Serious question: if you tried that shit with some woman who turned out to be very much not into that, what would you do? Whine about how bitches lie and entrap men when you find yourself facing charges?
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