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PaperclipPerfector  1d ago (text post)   1255 thread views

Friday Fun Thread for May 15, 2026

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Inspired by the fear the reaper thread, It's always been odd to me that so many Christians and ex-Christians report being scared of hell. It always seemed pretty easy to avoid to me absurdly easy in Protestant's case but even for Catholics and Orthodox you just need to go to a priest.

The ease you're describing is exactly what should worry you. "Just believe" and "just see a priest" both assume the spiritually dead can flip their own switch, which is the one thing Scripture says they can't do. Hell isn't scary because the exit procedure is hard; it's serious because "I said the words" was never the question being asked.

I guess I meant believers when I was a believer I never had much worry, faith the size of a mustard seed and all that, and my faith was much stronger then that. When I stopped believing well I no longer feared hell. In Thomas' thread a lot of people were saying when they were Christians they were worried about hell. I dunno maybe it's my Protestant upbringing that believing in Jesus and accepting him into your heart was how you got to heaven and since I did that I was never too fussed about the whole thing.

It's also the case that protestants do not all agree on what faith entails, and it isn't necessarily something super easy to achieve or to be sure that you have. And regarding confession and so on, papists do require contrition, you can't just show up and run through a script without repenting.

I think that either I'll be saved, or else never stood a chance; if my ongoing sincere repentance isn't enough, probably nothing would have been. My problem is that I don't know what hell is or what to expect after death.

I'm not really worried about eternal conscious torment, but put it this way: I've had enough experience as a psychonaut that my horizons in terms of possible states of consciousness and being have been enormously broadened, and I'm viscerally aware of terrible possibilities that probably wouldn't occur to most.

Even if I look forward to what ultimately comes after death, I'm afraid of the transition. I'm afraid of my brain shutting down, and what that's going to be like. I'm very afraid of what it will be like to face judgment, even if mostly pretty confident in the outcome. Are we faced with the entirety of our own sinfulness before absolution? Why? To what end? And how could I stand that? Or does Christ just show up immediately and say "Don't worry about it, you're done, I've got it from here, welcome to eternal bliss"?

Will I be called upon to live again? Does following Christ mean choosing to go back into the world and suffer as a human for others? My life is amazing and I have no trouble seeing it as a gift, though shot through with pain, hopefully for the purpose of spiritual growth. But I look at the lives of almost anyone else and think, no, I don't want to experience that.

I can imagine endless possibilities, and expect that the reality will be far beyond even those; incomprehensible to my current imagination.

The right attitude here is to trust and bear in mind the solemnity of what's coming. And I do those things. But I find that it's best to not dwell on it too much.

I guess it's a perception where the magnitude of the negative outcome ("ETERNITY" burning in hell) makes the fear much bigger than its low percentage likelihood implies. Even when it's significantly under the person's own control. Assuming the deity's commandments are accurately portrayed, all you gotta do is follow them.

It's a known phenomenon in lots of phobias and irrational fears that are common in the human mind.

It doesn't seem irrational to be deeply, persistently terrified of going to hell, if you genuinely believe in a religious doctrine where your actions can send you there. The standard model, as I understand it, is that hell is infinitely bad and lasts forever. Feed that into any reasonable expected utility calculation and the answer is that you should be doing everything reasonable, every unreasonable thing, and a fair amount of stuff that would normally land you in my outpatient clinic, just to nudge your probability of going there down by an epsilon.

The obvious rejoinder, and I'll concede it freely, is that belief in this kind of doctrine is itself irrational in the boring "insufficient evidence for wildly disproportionate claims" sense. Of course I believe that. I'm an atheist.

My claim is conditional. If you believe, you ought to be acting like you believe. You should be giving away every cent you don't strictly need and praying until you can no longer stay upright, treating your eternal soul with at least the seriousness that most people reserve for their pension contributions.

Almost nobody does this. The structural limitations of the human brain and psyche prevent true believers from following their professed beliefs to the logical conclusion, and memetic pressure has clearly selected for less extreme (but more incoherent) behavioral phenotypes. The version of Christianity that actually requires you to sell all you have and follow Jesus loses, evolutionarily speaking, to the version where you go to Mass on Christmas, baptize the kids, and otherwise live a perfectly secular life.

So in a very specific and very narrow sense, I respect the Jihadist more than I respect the nominal Muslim washing down a pork sandwich with a glass of whiskey. I respect the Christian Fundamentalist homeschooling six kids more than the milquetoast Cultural Catholic who shows up to Mass because his mother expects it, instead of because his Holy Book demands it in completely unambiguous language. The extremists are at least taking their own stated premises seriously. The moderates engage in a motte-and-bailey where the doctrine says one thing and their lives say another, and they've made peace with the contradiction by declining to ever look at it directly.

That respect is, of course, an extremely narrow form of respect. It is not the same as liking the Jihadist or the Fundie more than the normal/modal religious person. I'd vastly rather hang out with the typical Anglican, who is functionally indistinguishable from an atheist like me on any given Tuesday afternoon. I just happen to respect coherence and adherence to principle a great deal, even when the principle in question strikes me as embarrassingly unsupported by the underlying evidence.

I very much agree with this. Lukewarm believers, or even people who follow no tenants or like one. Don't make any sense to me, but I guess a lot of people treat religion totally different then other beliefs and also view it as something you are rather than a statement of the universe. As someone who was raised a conservative evangelical these views were railed against and I always agreed with that. If this stuff matters it really matters otherwise it's nothing. Episcopalians and the like make no sense to me but I'm happy they exist as someone who likes a secular world. I do view them as kind of useful idiots though.

If you believe, you ought to be acting like you believe. You should be giving away every cent you don't strictly need and praying until you can no longer stay upright, treating your eternal soul with at least the seriousness that most people reserve for their pension contributions.

No you don't that's what I meant when I started this. In most Christian denominations hell is fairly easy to avoid even if you sincerely believe in the premise. In most Evangelical denominations you just make a confession of faith or say the sinners prayer and your saved. Catholicism and Orthodoxy are a little more involved but not that much more. If you sincerely believe in the faith then you think you know the rules so hell shouldn't be an issue. None of the New Testament shows being saved as a particularly hard state to achieve.

You should be giving away every cent you don't strictly need and praying until you can no longer stay upright

This is not what the Christian life should look like, it's a caricature. We know because it's not even what Jesus' life looked like. He prayed a lot, but he did lots of other things too, including apparently being a full time carpenter for most of his life.

Christianity teaches that God has a unique purpose for each of our lives, and the only way to discern it is to submit to the Holy Spirit and trust in His Providence.

In fact one of the big issues we Evangelicals have with Catholics is that their salvation relies on their behavior and on the grace provided by the sacraments. The problem is that no amount of holy behavior can get you to heaven, only Christ's grace - but that grace is freely given, and we can in fact have confidence in our salvation.

Catholics who take their faith seriously end up like Martin Luther, who famously would spend hours every day in Confession. That is, until he developed his understanding of Sola Fide - our salvation is only through our faith in Christ.

There's not to say we shouldn't pray, but a Christian prays because we want to hear from our Father, not because it will earn us eternal life if we do it enough.

This preference for following ideas through to their conclusion was often speculated to be what leads in the perception of an abnormally high number of engineers and scientists in ISIS. (I should say I never quite bought it; "Arab society does not have the Western correlation between education and secularism, and Westerners are surprised to see that expectation subverted" seemed truthy and sufficient to explain the observations)

Yup. Most Christians (myself included!) are "functional atheists". The current milieu is one of agnosticism rather than spiritualism, and it is easy for professing Christians to fall into that cultural rut. Of course, most atheists in 1600-1700s Europe were "functional Christians" when the surrounding culture was "Christian".

I do disagree with your claim that Christians should be doing every action possible to save themselves from Hell. Reformed/Protestant Christianity says that outside the work of the Holy Spirit even our good deeds contribute to our damnation (they are done out of alignment with God's desire). It is only through Christ's atoning work that we can be reconciled to God ("made alive in him"). Salvation comes from acceptance of this reality (or predestined selection for this reality, if you are TULIP inclined), not from any work/action that we can do.

Yeah I agree with all of this, except obviously I don't think hell is eternal and generally think God is more of a chill guy than most Christians. Which, I hope, helps make my actions a bit more reasonable.

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