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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   32787 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 20, 2023

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Looks like Dilbert is being pulled from newspapers following controversial remarks by its creator, Scott Adams https://www.foxnews.com/us/laid-off-newspapers-drop-office-cartoon-dilbert-over-creators-racial-remarks

Multiple newspapers have pulled the popular office comedy comic strip "Dilbert" after its creator Scott Adams made racist comments in his podcast, and then doubled down on them.

"If nearly half of all Blacks are not okay with White people – according to this poll, not to me – that’s a hate group," Adams said during his "Coffee with Scott Adams" vlog, referring to a Rasmussen poll published this week. "That’s a hate group, and I don’t want anything to do with them."

"And I would say, based on the current way things are going, the best advice I can give to White people is to get the hell away from Black people," he continued, adding, "There is no fixing this … you just have to escape," which he said was why he moved to his current neighborhood that has "a very low Black population."

I don't think this is quite that big of deal personally. He has FU money and his brand/career at punditry keeps growing. I think his bigger risk would is being de-platformed from Youtube/Twitter. He don't need Dilbert anymore but he does need his Youtube and Twitter accounts.

I think it's an interesting step though. Regardless of what the headlines say, Adams was doing 'racism' from a rather 'queer' angle. Whilst people can shout about racism from the sidelines I don't think there are any salient right of center arguments against the position Adams put himself in.

As a white person, is your safety and wellbeing secondary to your obligation to help black people that hate you?

Why does some black people hating white people and being dangerous mean that one should avoid all black people? Many black people are obviously not like that.

99%+ of AR-15 owners don't commit mass shootings; it doesn't stop the half of the country that doesn't understand gun culture from finding all AR-15 owners at best suspicious and at worst actively threatening.

To be honest, I don't find an argument "some idiots do idiotic thing X, therefore you should do similar thing Y" particularly compelling.

What's your point?

Attempting to point out the hypocrisy of a social justice movement that simultaneously argues that a) it's horribly racist for white people to be frightened by black people on account of the actions of a very small subset of black people and b) it makes perfect sense for people to be frightened by guns on account of the actions of a very small subset of gun owners.

But I am not part of that social justice movement and did not say those things. So why are you responding to my comment with that?

Area A has higher risk than area B. Which one would you like your family to live in?

Now help me understand why the fact that 'many black people are not violent and hateful' should influence your decision. Do the same for the school you will send your kid to.

I would certainly live in a richer, safer area. But I would not have a preference between safer area with a lot of black families and equally safe and attractive area with no black families. As an anecdata, I had a black family live almost next door to me (second door actually) and the only non-positive thing I can remember about them is that they put up "Black lives matter" placard on their window for a while. I certainly wouldn't have an objection to living close to a similar family (even with the placard, I had much much worse neighbors than that - who were lily white btw, which is easily explained of course by the fact that the majority of my neighbors were white. Interestingly enough they replaced another black family who moved out - and who were very good neighbors). Why would I Goodhart myself in such important matters? If I want to live in a safe neighborhood, I'd just look into its safety directly, not into an imperfect proxy like the race of its inhabitants. Once I know the direct data, the race part would not even be necessary. I mean, certainly, there would be a correlation, likely, but I don't need the correlation if I can have the necessary data directly!

If your preference for safety leads you to implicitly avoid living with black people, then this is fine.

If your preference for safety leads you to explicitly avoid living with black people, then this is... fine? Or no?

On top of all of that, race as a proxy functions on a much broader level than just crime. Which is why I mentioned schooling. When you have picked a safe area with a 'good' school you won't be living near black people. Those are just two things that you can virtually guarantee via the race proxy. It might not be as precise as looking directly at the safety of the area and the 'goodness' of the school, but there is undeniably a lot of information there. Not just information about the immediate circumstance, but also as a predictor. Is the area and school close to blacks? Are there signs of these areas getting 'darker' or 'lighter'? I'm not saying this information is 'better'. I'm simply recognizing that it is undeniably information relevant to the things cared about. Not to mention race based ingroup bias where many blacks otherize whites.

I guess I am not understanding where the need to even express this distinction comes from. People use and live by countless imperfect proxies their whole lives. In ways that directly and indirectly impact people close by them or far away from them. No one cares. But for some reason we won't allow ourselves to use this very obvious and highly informative proxy because, what? We can imagine a hypothetical situation that negates it? Or because we can recognize that information about groups doesn't reflect on all individuals of that group?

I could understand a person who ingroups blacks being mad at someone who is outgrouping blacks. But your post strikes me as being written by someone who is doing neither. Not a racist, not an anti-racist. 'People are just people and when they do good its good and when they do bad its bad.' Maybe I'm wrong on that impression, but regardless, I don't see why such a person would hold any reservations about taking away information from race as a proxy. It's just people. Some of them are a different color and commit a lot more crime. What's the big deal?

If your preference for safety leads you to implicitly avoid living with black people, then this is fine.

But it doesn't. It makes me avoid living in poor neighborhoods with bad policing and so on. Yes, many of such neighborhoods have a lot of black people, many of other such neighborhoods don't have any black people. I don't care. I won't live in either.

When you have picked a safe area with a 'good' school you won't be living near black people.

Again, if I look for good schools, I'd just look for good schools. Why would I again need a proxy if I can just find out which school is good?

I'm simply recognizing that it is undeniably information relevant to the things cared about.

That's the point - it is not. It's like you wanted to fly to Canada, and instead of going to the travel site and looking up flights to Canada and buying a ticket, you started tracking people who look Canadian to you, in case they'd want to go home and you then could follow them and figure out how to get to Canada. Sure, if you're lucky you could get to Canada this way too, but it's not the way any sane person would approach it!

But it doesn't. It makes me avoid living in poor neighborhoods with bad policing and so on.

You imply that it does. Race is a stronger predictor of crime than poverty in the majority of the literature that looks at this. By the standard you allow yourself to say you are avoiding living in poor neighborhoods you are by definition avoiding living in black neighborhoods. I would even hazard a guess that, proportionally, a poor neighborhood would be more likely to be safe and have a good school than a black one in the vast majority of cases.

I don't care.

I never said you did. The point of the 'implicit' example was precisely to say that it's not about it being a stated preference.

Again, if I look for good schools, I'd just look for good schools. Why would I again need a proxy if I can just find out which school is good?

I didn't say you needed it. I said that it was valid. I said it wasn't necessarily as precise as directly looking at the metric as measured, but that there was undeniably information there. Considering that no metric, not matter how direct, is a crystal ball I don't see why a person who professes to no care about race would ignore it if it had valid and relevant information. You are making inferences about reality based on metrics and proxies.

That's the point - it is not.

The correlations between black and every single relevant metric are higher than practically anything else. To couch it as luck or insanity to deduce something from race as a proxy goes far beyond any realm of rationality. On top of that, I'm not proposing an either or. I find your analogy completely inapplicable to what I've been saying.

Race is a stronger predictor of crime than poverty in the majority of the literature that looks at this.

That very well may be - but I don't need a predictor if I can get the actual thing measured!

I didn't say you needed it. I said that it was valid.

Possible, but why invent such proxy if there's no need in it?

You are making inferences about reality based on metrics and proxies.

Well, yes, but there are more direct metrics for the quality of schools, why anybody would be interested in metrics that are secondary or tertiary?

The correlations between black and every single relevant metric are higher than practically anything else.

Ok, there's a correlation. But so what? There are a lot of correlations: https://tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations Given that I have access to direct metrics, how this correlation is more useful to me than correlation between butter production in Bangladesh and marriage rate in Kentucky?

More comments

Saying one should avoid black people is a much stronger statement than saying one should not live in neighbourhoods with a lot of black people.

Adams was giving a practical advice to white people: 'get the hell away from black people'.

I don't see the angle you are gunning for here. Unless you are arguing against racism in thought but not practice.

Adam’s said you need to escape black people which is why Adam’s moved to a place with very few black people. One could read that as “don’t live in neighborhoods with a lot of black people”

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