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PaperclipPerfector  4d ago (text post)   16753 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 22, 2026

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Most 2A legalize is based on pragmatism versus wording. We could easily go down that path with birthright citizenship and the Constitutional argument that birthright is limited is a lot better in my view than any of the limits they’ve put on 2A.

The non-obvious part of Birthright is clearly that “subject to the jurisdiction” needs to mean something. And that phrase can mean anything a reader wants it to be because it’s not defined anywhere and if your intellectually honest you do some kind of historical analysis or you can just not give a shit and define “jurisdiction” in the optimal way for your view.

“subject to the jurisdiction” needs to mean something

It means that an exception is made for children born to diplomatic personnel, invading troops or their camp followers, and Indians Native Americans Amerindians Indigenous people First Nations whatever the preferred nomenclature is this week who were considered not part of the United States.

The children of diplomats exception doesn't make sense under the theories presented by the parties suing the Trump administration though. Its not like a diplomat (or their child) can commit a homicide and the US will just ignore it and not prosecute. The same is true of an Indian who wandered off a reservation in 1900 or a Canadian who drunkenly boats into American waters and rams another boat. All those people get prosecuted in American courts for said crimes. So that cannot mean what "subject to the jurisdiction" means.

Its not like a diplomat (or their child) can commit a homicide and the US will just ignore it and not prosecute.

The US would prosecute a US diplomat or service member because they are subject to the jurisdiction of the united states regardless of whether they are residing in the US. Foreign diplomats and service member's are not subject to US jurisdiction and so they are considered separately.

The child of a US service member born on a US military base is a US citizen even if that base is outside the US. The child of a French diplomat is a citizen of France and not the US even if they are born within US territory.

True but all this is irrelevant to my point that we can and have prosecuted foreign diplomats for crimes committed in the US while the diplomat was serving in that function.

Nobody is trying to claim those they are US citizens though is what the case is about.

The original claim that @Celestial-body-NOS was responding to was that "subject to the jurisdiction” needs to mean something and it does.

The question is about whether someone who is in the US illegally is formally under US jurisdiction or not?

When I look at historical context I think I feel 30% justified saying it was just slaves and 70% jurisdiction refers to more people.

To pass an amendment you need 2/3 of the Senate. Simplifying here today you would need 67 Senators to pass an amendment. We have different numbers today but let’s say 60 Senators voted for it believing “jurisdiction” including more than slaves and 7 Senators voted for it thinking it just meant slaves. In this case the majority of yes votes view Birthright essentially how it has functioned now but the decisive votes on the Amendment thought it just meant slaves.

So then what definition of “jurisdiction” would an origionalists use - the majority or the decisive vote?

I have no idea. My gut says a lot of people voting on the amendment were probably just voting on slave kids get citizenship.

Its not like a diplomat (or their child) can commit a homicide and the US will just ignore it and not prosecute.

That's, like, the whole point of diplomatic immunity.

Diplomatic immunity is waived voluntarily by the host countries in major crimes to avoid an international incident. But we can prosecute without a waiver, and there is a specific US statute that says diplomats are not immune from state traffic laws and have to pay their traffic tickets.

Movie diplomatic immunity is fake.

Diplomats notoriously don't pay their traffic tickets and get away with it, however.

It's not like a diplomat (or his child) can commit a homicide and the US will just ignore it and not prosecute.

A law-review article provides several counterexamples.

  • 1987: A Papua New Guinea diplomat, driving drunk, crashes into several parked cars, injuring one person severely and another minorly.

  • 1984: Libyans shoot at a protest in front of their embassy in Britain, killing a police officer and injuring 11 other people.

  • 1984: British customs officials discover a crate that contains Israeli mercenaries and a Nigerian emigré whom the mercenaries have kidnapped and are trying to smuggle out, accompanied by a Nigerian diplomat.

  • 1981: Strong evidence indicates that the son of a Ghanaian diplomat has raped several women in the USA.

  • 1982: The son of a Brazilian diplomat shoots a bouncer in the USA.

None of these incidents resulted in prosecution of the person covered by diplomatic immunity.

But see Gueorgui Makharadze (1997). Dui homicide. We held him in the country for years then prosecuted him.

Diplomatic immunity is like the pirates code in the Johnny Depp movies, "the code is more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules."

Historical analysis? But the drafters couldn't have envisionned the consequences of modern transportation technology!

I just think it's really funny that it's the same argument as the one over the militia except with the sides reversed.

Yeah though I feel the Second Amendment drafters were probably more capable of imagining modern personal weaponry achievements than birthright citizenship people grappling with '98% of the population of the world can be in the USA within 48 hours for less than $2000 USD*' without even getting into the internet or modern telecommunications.

*Just randomly clicking around Africa and Asia for my own amusement and genuinely surprised how few places were over $1500 or so one-way if you're willing to put up with 4 layovers

I agree. Origionalism is a loser philosophy sides pick when they do not have power in the SC to try and limit the power of the SC. When in charge you want liberal philosophies of law that let you choose the meaning of words to shape society how you believe is best.

I use to be an Origionalists when my side was not in power. I now believe in Common Good Constitutionalism now that my side is in power.

I use to be an Origionalists when my side was not in power. I now believe in Common Good Constitutionalism now that my side is in power.

Hm... I always liked originalism as a libertarian-leaning person with socially liberal views.

While I'm personally pro-LGBT, I feel like Obergefell was badly decided. And I was personally happy with the Dobbs decision, despite being pro-choice, because I feel like it was the correct choice as a matter of straightforward legal interpretation.

The new MAGA right has only made me dig in more, and think I was right to reject Living Constitutionalism from the left, and equally justified now rejecting Common Good Constitutionalism from the right. I think principles matter, and if the laws are bad, we should change the laws, not ignore them or pretend they mean whatever we think they should mean.

But I suppose you could say that as a libertarian, I'm always on the losing side, so maybe I am just an adherent of a loser philosophy that retreats to originalism no matter who is in power.

I think a pragmatic libertarian would begin to believe that the constitution can’t protect libertarianism. I am probably too into the weeds on hbd but I do think core personality traits differ by race because of their evolved environment. Demographic change will kill the American experience.

Demographics I believe is the main reason Thiel has moved into Argentina. I believe he still counts as libertarian and most of the old libertarians have gone down the road to fascism to save liberty.

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