This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I was following with interest the recent discussion here on the degenerate nature of hardcore anime fandom and I find that there are aspects to this that nobody mentioned. In this comment I'd like to call attention to one of these. Namely:
I propose the argument that feminist ideology has reached a level of cultural influence in the West sometime around 2008-2012 where unironic* depictions of conventionally attractive, sexually alluring, non-girlboss female characters have become taboo in the eyes of normie women**.
*Unironic in the sense that it's by no means done for the purpose of ironically conveying some politicized message about the sad reality of the male gaze, societal sexism etc.
**That is, women that are either lipstick feminists or conform to the norms of the (surely present) lipstick feminist women in their social circle. In other words, the big majority of women, or at least of young urban women.
Since the Japanese anime industry does not abide by these cultural norms, the consequence of this is that anime as a whole is increasingly suspect in the eyes of normie/NPC women, which has at least two consequences of its own. One: the male partners and/or friends of these women, who are usually cucky and normie-oriented betas, evidently adopt the same view, which contribute to its spread. Two: this provides an incentive to notice, thematize and even embellish the off-putting manifestations of anime fandom.
I'd make two more related observations as potential food for thought from this very forum.
@urquan has made a somewhat similar point before: resolute (male) attempts to counter-signal against the taboo on sexual display in a workplace setting are intensely off-putting to normie women. (The difference here is between intensely off-putting and, well, merely off-putting.)
This comment by @WhiningCoil also caught my attention:
Considering that the Berserk franchise contains excessive amounts of brutal violence, horror and gore, and as does Game of Thrones, plus not only "sexposition" but also explicit sex, rape, incest etc., I find it telling that it was a groping scene (which, it should be mentioned, was unironically accidental) that finally crossed the line in her eyes.
And finally a general point: this entire phenomenon has no female counterpart. That is, we see no similar widespread disapproval of (more or less) goonerbait cultural material directed at women. In fact, it appears to me that there is a general push to normalize it.
Seconded. I’ll add that as a lover of European-style fantasy, the only game in town (outside of mediums with zero or near-zero production costs like webfic) is anime and JRPGs and their Korean/Chinese equivalents. What are your options for modern fantasy in the west these days? The Rings of Power or the Wheel of Time show (is this the worst time in history to see something you like get an adaptation announced?)? Dragon Age Veilguard? If you are fine with out of place diversity, progressive axe grinding, and the host of modern western neuroses on race, gender, and sexuality and the inherent storytelling compromises they demand, I guess you are not wanting for content.
We don’t have to live like this, though. One of my favorite newer shows is Frieren: Beyond Journey’s End, which I’d recommend to anyone from the last thread who was skeptical or worried about fanservice. It is a heartfelt, understated story with lovable characters and beautiful animation. Spy x Family is another good entry anime, a lighthearted story about a young family set in Cold War-era not-Berlin. Jobless Reincarnation (this one is NOT wife/gf-safe and the main character does some things I won’t defend in the start of the story) is a thoughtful, inspiring story of self-actualization and second chances. Most people into anime already know this, but I saw overlap between people who often complain about modern western media and people calling anime degenerate in that last thread.
There exists a media ecosystem where you don’t have to be lectured about progressive ideals, masculinity and whiteness being problematic isn’t the story’s metaphysical assumption, and yes — as Botund said, sex appeal that exists for the eyes of straight men is allowed to exist. I used to have a hangup about that last category in a rather Scott Aaronson manner and saw it as immoral, but I’ve come around on it and now see the male gaze, in moderation, as a good thing. Women enjoy media meant to appeal to their tastes and don’t question it or wring their hands about it; you should too.
Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves (2023) was pretty good. There are a couple of black characters and a female barbarian, but it's done in a very 90's way; colorblind, gender neutral, never drawing attention to itself. But that's only one movie, and it was horribly screwed over by marketing which implied that it was a woke film, so point taken.
These days, I get most of my fantasy fix from glowfic, which is a kind of web novel written collaboratively by two or more authors taking turns roleplaying as their characters; near-zero production costs, indeed. I strongly recommend Project Lawful, the epic co-authored by Iarwain (Eliezer Yudkowsky/Less Wrong) and lintamande (Kelsey Piper/The Unit of Caring). The ending made me cry; I never thought I would respect Cayden Cailean like that, but Eliezer was right; every character has the potential to be awesome.
More options
Context Copy link
Spy x Family is an interesting one, to me, because I think its fundamental conviction is that families are great. It's a show that places ordinary domestic life, like going to school or making dinner or getting a pet, alongside dramatic super-spy nonsense that involves terrorists and blowing up buildings and leaping over cars and acrobatic assassins dispatching their targets, and it thinks that both are equally important. It almost thinks that domestic life is more important than spycraft. We expect Twilight to catch the bad guys and retrieve the microfilm and so on, but we are cheering for Loid to show tenderness and care toward his daughter. Yor is simultaneously an ultra-competent and deadly assassin and a well-meaning klutz of a wife, and it's the latter role where she faces the greatest challenges, not only in terms of skill and experience, but in terms of emotional readiness. From the first moment of the show, the contrast, and the comedy deriving therefrom, is obviously at its heart. Yes, yes, there's all the silly James Bond stuff, but all that stuff is important because it defends families.
It's very sweet, and I am tempted to argue the kind of quiet pro-family propaganda that we could do with a bit more of.
More options
Context Copy link
I wholeheartedly second Frieren. It is a beautiful story, and is well-suited to non-anime-watching normies. (In a similar class to things like Death Note or Fullmetal Alchemist.) The dub is also fairly well done, for people who don't want to read while watching something.
I mean, I would argue there's a few media ecosystems like that around the world. I've enjoyed the occasions where I've dipped my toes into Indian cinema (Bollywood and South Indian cinema) as well. While there's less overt sex appeal in most Indian cinema than in anime, it is still a media ecosystem where they often allow unapologetic stories of badass men doing cool things and getting the girl.
It might rub some of the most pro-Western members of the Motte here the wrong way, but I consider RRR to be one of the best action films of the last 10 years. I've sometimes joked about making it a part of a "British Empire Cinematic Universe" movie marathon, alongside The Patriot, and The Wind that Shakes the Barley.
And where Indian cinema does go quasi-woke, it is most commonly focusing on things like caste discrimination, which I suspect are easier for most anti-woke people to stomach. For example, I really enjoyed the film Karnan (2021), and it was probably inspired by 1995 caste riots (while not referencing them directly.)
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link