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PaperclipPerfector  7d ago (text post)   22014 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of August 10, 2026

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On Social Norms

The English writer G.K. Chesterton talks about what one should do if you encounter a fence unattended in a field. Some people might have the impulse to just tear it down. After all, what is it doing there, standing alone in this field? But he actually suggests that one should investigate. The fence may not seem useful to you in this moment, but it was probably put there for a reason, and one should try and figure out what that reason was before discarding the fence entirely.

I think that notion can be applied to social norms too, even once it seems outdated.

So here's one example: Should men open doors for women? When you're trying to figure out whether a norm has any use still, it's helpful to look at what it was there for originally. Was it there to help someone, to protect, to orient society in a useful way? Is that use case still in some way valid now? If so, maybe that norm is still doing something good, even if it isn't evident immediately to you.

One thing I dislike about critics of social norms is how bad they tend to be at understanding why people had certain norms in the past. Many people believe that everything was simply oppressive and to shit on people, without critically thinking about anything in particular.

Feminist for example, love to dunk on slut shaming, without thinking about the alternative, which is basically people getting sick as shit from disease, and various illegitimate children with multiple mothers/fathers. Of course, as long as you get checked for STD's and use protection, you could avoid many of those problems, but the fact we see large amounts of STDs, abortions, and single motherhood among various racial groups withing society (blacks, Hispanics, & native americans) doesn't make that argument convincing at scale. I've known of men & women who deliberately for go condoms because it doesnt "feel good", and then get a pikachu face when they are given diseases or get pregnant.

Its become more and more apparent to me that there are many people in our society who simply dont or cant make good decisions, even if given an optimal environment. Perhaps there is a discussion to be had around norms about dating and sex, even if we conclude slut shaming isnt an ideal solution?

Do you believe life would in fact be better, per your own value function, on the balance if inexplicable fences were always and everywhere respected as suggested in Chesterton's parable? You might have gotten some more decades of prohibition on homosexuality (until some threshold of medical advances is met), but you might also have gotten another 300 years of Mesoamerican human sacrifice culture (I figure it took at least this much until science had gotten to a point where it tried to give plausible rational explanations for why that tradition emerged and persisted).

Chesterton said "if you understand why the fence was there, then you can tear it down". If you think "that's just in my way", you may be tearing down the fence that is keeping the bull in the field from running at you and goring you.

People can be idiot fools and ignore warning signs about cliff edges, and then be all shocked when they go right to the edge and it crumbles beneath their feet. Hell yeah don't tear down 'inexplicable' fences because you may be an idiot fool and not the smart invulnerable person you think you are.

Chesterton said "if you understand why the fence was there, then you can tear it down".

No, he did not. He said "If you do not understand why the fence is there, then you may not tear it down". Understanding is necessary, not sufficient. Which is why in practice people invoking Chesterton's Fence are usually just saying "no". If you point out the reason the fence was there, they'll come up with another reason.

Okay, exact quote, bolding mine:

To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.”

That has the word "may" in there--not "will".

Suppose they come back and tell you that they see the use of it, and that use is actually pretty darn good. Still useful, in fact, moreso than the alternative. As a kicker, upon realizing the use of it, they might even agree with you that the use is good enough to justify not destroying it. Should the result still be that they "will" destroy it?

It is literally true that they wouldn't destroy the fence if that happens, but that isn't the connotation of the statement.

I mean, I read the connotation the other way? I think it's at least obvious that the statement shouldn't say that they "will" destroy it, because that would imply absurd results in some cases. So at the very least, since your first alternative word fails, I think you should propose a second alternative word that better captures the connotation you would prefer. Otherwise, I would conclude that the original captures even what you think it should be saying better than your proposed alternative.

I would also note that later in the quote, he says:

If he knows how it arose, and what purposes it was supposed to serve, he may really be able to say that they were bad purposes, that they have since become bad purposes, or that they are purposes which are no longer served.

Of course, if he knows how it arose, and what purposes it was supposed to serve, he may also discover that it still serves a good purpose. Thus, it "may" be the case that the conclusion is that it should be destroyed, and it "may" be the case that it should nonetheless be preserved. It boggles the mind to say that it "will" be the case that it should be destroyed (or that it should be preserved) without having any interrogation of the specifics.

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