site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1d ago (text post)   6830 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 21, 2026

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

4
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Here in Russia the urban/rural divide is defined by employment. If 50% or more or the economically active population is employed in agriculture, it's a rural locality. Of course, this alone doesn't define suburban living, but I would define it like this: 50% or more of the economically active population is not employed in agriculture and their place of employment is located in another locality.

But this definition isn't great. Imagine a small town with 49 farmers and 51 people, out of which 49 commute to a large city to work. It's not rural and not suburban, which means it has to be urban, which is a silly idea. Maybe it should be defined like this:

If 50% or more are employed in agriculture, it's a rural locality;
Otherwise, if 50% or more of those not employed in agriculture work in a different locality, it's a suburban locality;
Otherwise, it's an urban locality.

Still not perfect, but I think it's a workable definition.

If 50% or more are employed in agriculture, it's a rural locality; Otherwise, if 50% or more of those not employed in agriculture work in a different locality, it's a suburban locality; Otherwise, it's an urban locality.

I don't think that works because there's plenty of small suburban or rural towns (in a way that we would definitely recognize them as such despite definitions) that are basically supported by a single big factory. People work locally, not in agriculture, but that doesn't make those tiny towns urban. And the tiny villages around them that supply some extra workers aren't necessarily suburban.

Outside of density, which could be used to make a hard criteria for analysis, but not necessarily capture the real spirit of the word, I would define the three as what proximity people are seeking there.

In urban localities, people want to be in proximity to other people. Density is a virtue here. In suburban localities, people want to be in proximity to the urban locality, but not other people. Density is not a virtue, but it will happen as there is a limit to how far people can be and meaningfully access the urban core. In rural localities, people want to be in proximity to open spaces (for economic purposes, like agricultural activity, for recreation or as an aesthetic preference).

Isn't a rural town an oxymoron?

Not in American usage. Rural town means it's not part of a larger metro, or at least not connected to it/too far for reasonable commuting. America would use the term 'farm town' for what you're envisioning(which may not be a town), a 'rural town' might be supported by tourism, mining, a single large employer, etc. A major city is something with suburbs and a suburb is attached to a major city(but may or may not have a population that commutes there for work; some suburbs have more people commuting in from the city than out to the city) and an exurb is a town detached from the major city but economically dependent on a large portion of its population commuting there. A 'village' sounds like something thirdworlders live in.

Not in American usage. Rural town means it's not part of a larger metro, or at least not connected to it/too far for reasonable commuting. America would use the term 'farm town' for what you're envisioning(which may not be a town), a 'rural town' might be supported by tourism, mining, a single large employer, etc.

It probably has something to do with American farming patterns and pervasive automobilization. To me a large employer like a mine or a factory automatically means "urban", because people will start settling next to it, and supporting businesses will follow. And the fewer households have cars, the more the town will need more of these local businesses to function.

In my state, towns and cities are incorporated; villages are not. There are some very affluent villages that are filled with people who just don’t want to mess with another layer of government.

A 'village' sounds like something thirdworlders live in.

I grew up in a farming town in the fly over states. We had a both a "Town of Bumfuckville" and a "Village of Bumfuckville" as two separate incorporated municipalities. The town was technically the larger outlying land, and the village was the area around the main-street, the branches, and a few of the neighborhoods surrounding it. No clue why it incorporated like that, but while they were technically distinct legal municipalities they did play together (along with other towns) for the school district.

No clue why it incorporated like that

It's practically a tradition in some parts of the country. (Pennsylvania townships are incorporated, unlike townships in some other states.)

NJ townships are also incorporated (and are by far the most common form of municipal government), but a few of the borough/township splits have joined in the past few years, notably Princeton (home of the eponymous university)

Oh that's hilarious. Is there a technical distinction between a Township and a Town?

It appears not.

To me no; town I would define as a locality that has most of the services needed for day-to-day life, a core that spans a few streets rather than one, but doesn't have the businesses and services that would truly make it independant. A town would have for instance pharmacies, supermarkets, maybe some chain stores like a walmart, a few restaurants, probably a high school, medical clinics but no hospital, no mall, no airport, no nightlife outside of local bars, minimal public transport. I expect people from a town make a trip to a city in a 1-2 hours drive radius a few times a year when they want to go on real "shopping" trip, need to go to a hospital, etc... There usually aren't any higher education institutions in towns either, so the kids often end up having to move when they start studying at that level.

A village, to me, has a handful of businesses, rarely spread on more than one street: a gas station, a local diner, a very small grocery store, maybe an elementary school, maybe a bar or two but everyone there goes to the nearest town in a 15-30 minutes radius for their real actual groceries every week, and to a city as often as the townfolks do.

I would even posit that the the village/town/city distinction is sometimes completely distinct from rural/suburban/urban. There are small cities in my province that exist essentially as service hubs for the surrounding countryside. They are a bit denser than a typical suburb but the economic engine is not the city. One of them, for instance, has a large veterinary hospital, the biggest agricultural school in the province, etc...

Note that the UN definitions place the thresholds for "city" at 50,000 people, "town" at 5000, and "village" at 500. (And my aforementioned "mega-city" starts at 500,000.)

This is even worse, especially in New Jersey, where we've got weird stuff like Metutchen (pop 15,000) entirely surrounded by Edison (pop 110,000). Edison is just dense suburbia.

To clarify, both UN and US definitions operate on density-based "urban areas" rather than on legal boundaries.

Someone made maps for that here. This makes a large part of the NY metro area one enormous city of 14M. Edison is near the bottom left but I can't tell for sure if it's in or out. Might be useful for some purposes but definitely doesn't map to what Americans would consider 'a city'. (Then again, NYC itself doesn't either)

Someone made maps for that here.

The official UN maps are here (includes basemap with labels) and here (includes per-city information pop-ups). The official US map is here.

Edison is near the bottom left but I can't tell for sure if it's in or out.

It's in, right on the edge.

I prefer the UK system, where the rules are made up and, on the basis of fairness, Wales gets an automatic city for each Jubilee. Unfortunately, they realized they also needed a more sensible taxonomy, which does ruin the fun a bit.

I get why they would, because other definitions are fuzzy and open to interpretations, even though in practice most people I know can tell which one a place is by looking at what its core looks like.

Yes in the context of rigorous density-based definitions, but no in the context of employment and surroundings. Literally just yesterday, I attended a municipal council meeting where somebody referred to the municipality as part of "rural Pennsylvania" even though it's suburban under the UN definition and urban under the US definition.

Yeah, same here. Only about 2% of the population have anything at all to do with agriculture, and yet most communities (by number, not by population) are rural villages.

Why not suburban, then? Where do all these people work?

Only about 2% of the population have anything at all to do with agriculture

I don't know about that, the Netherlands has that same statistic but that only counts owner-operator farmers and contract labour (modern farmhands, essentially). It doesn't count the tractor mechanics, feed suppliers, veterinarians, etc, all of whom would be unemployed if we were to stop farming. A tractor mechanic is in the tertiary sector (services). Those people may not be farmers but they sure have something to do with agriculture.

Fair point, but that still won't push the numbers out of the single digits, never mind over 50%.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats