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PaperclipPerfector  6d ago (text post)   19437 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 21, 2026

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Stealing this from @ToaKraka in the FF thread:

A 911 call is made regarding a robbery perpetrated at gunpoint by three juvenile males in black clothing. One mile away from the location of the reported robbery, the responding officers find two juvenile males—one in all black, and another, KC, wearing a black shirt and mask and gray pants. The officers pull over alongside the juveniles and start walking toward them while shining a flashlight at them. KC starts walking away. An officer steps in front of KC, blocking his path, and asks him what's in his waistband. KC discards the object in his waistband (a gun) and runs away, but is quickly apprehended. He is charged with various delinquencies.

The trial judge grants KC's motion to suppress the evidence. The officers fully detained him, rather than casually speaking with him, when they shined a flashlight on him and blocked his path; and they did not have reasonable suspicion to detain him, since the description given in the 911 call was vague and KC didn't even match it. (The caller didn't even provide a direction in which the assailants fled. Did the officers have the power to detain all juvenile males wearing a single article of black clothing within a one-mile radius of the robbery? No.)

Our own BJ Campbell wrote that this is one of the important differences between the US and Western Europe. A German or British police officer would have the power to detain all juvenile males wearing a single article of black clothing within a one-mile radius of the robbery and physical evidence wouldn't be suppressed even if obtained without following the proper trail of investigation.

Is the USA shooting itself in the foot there? What will it lose if it changes its legal norms to lower the bar on probable cause and evidence suppression?

Wouldn’t this be reasonable suspicion, as for a traffic stop, and discarding the gun is itself probable cause?

I'm not quite sure what you're asking.

  • If you're pointing out that the standard in this case was reasonable suspicion rather than probable cause, then I clarified that here.

  • If you're saying that the officers had reasonable suspicion for a stop and the suspect's discarding of the gun upon being stopped then gave them probable cause for an arrest, then the judges found otherwise: there was no reasonable suspicion for a stop.

reasonable suspicion

Whose reasonable suspicion is it? Is it a 'reasonable man' or is it someone expert in detecting suspicious / criminal activity. It seems reasonable to me that this officer perhaps skilled in the art may notice an odd gait or posture due to carrying a wepon in a waistband that I or the judge may not as we are insufficiently skilled in the art of detection.

Whose reasonable suspicion is it? Is it a 'reasonable man' or is it someone expert in detecting suspicious / criminal activity.

The latter, according to Terry v. Ohio (the original case which established this)

In this case, the prosecutor characterized KC as "grabbing at his waistband and [blading] his body away from" the officer, but the trial judge "explicitly disagreed with this description of KC's actions after reviewing the body-camera footage".

However, I can't tell whether that disagreement is relevant here. The police officers initially stopped their car solely on the basis of the clothing worn by KC and the other juvenile, not on the basis of any suspicion of a gun. And it is unclear from the panel's summary of the officer's testimony whether the officer developed a separate suspicion that KC was carrying a gun before or after walking up and blocking his path.

I could see stopping based on description in the broadcast to make contact. Then upon approaching developing further suspicion. For blading I'd expect the officer to have to be face to face with KC to observe.

Even if I accept the officer didn’t have reasonable suspicion to detain KC, the discovery of the gun doesn't seem to be the result of a search. KC produces the gun to ditch it as he flees. Isn't it in in plain sight at that point? Is it the officer would have frisked for officer saftey and discovered the gun incident to this unreasonable detention?

Had the officers stayed in their patrol vehicle, spotlighted KC and asked if he had a gun, he ditches the gun and flees, are we looking at the same result?

I want officers out detecting criminal activity and removing guns from criminals. What should the officer have done differently in this situation to contact KC so the gun he ditches as he flees can be used as evidence?

What should the officer have done differently in this situation to contact KC so the gun he ditches as he flees can be used as evidence?

The officers could have just not blocked his path. The opinion gives two different examples where that was permitted: 1 2

Had the officers stayed in their patrol vehicle, spotlighted KC and asked if he had a gun, he ditches the gun and flees, are we looking at the same result?

This is exactly what happened in the linked examples. Example 1:

While driving eastbound on Cumberland Street, [Officer Moore] observe[d Joyner] walking in the same direction. [Joyner’s] right arm was allegedly pinned to his side as he walked with only his left arm swinging. As Officer Moore passed [Joyner], he allegedly saw what he described as a heavily weighted square object[,] which he associated with being a gun. More specifically, Officer Moore testified repeatedly during direct and cross-examination that he knew [Joyner] was concealing a firearm.

Upon seeing the officers, [Joyner] turn[ed] around and [began] to walk westbound on Cumberland Street. [Joyner] then walk[ed] onto Natrona Street[.] Officer Moore [reversed course down Cumberland Street and] pulled up to [Joyner at Natrona Steet. Officer Moore then] asked [Joyner] if he was carrying a gun. [Joyner] respond[ed] no. Officer Moore ask[ed] if [Joyner was] sure and he [said no again and began walking away]. As Officer Moore opened his door, [Joyner ran]. No lights or sirens had been activated.

Example 2:

Officer Zgleszewski testified that at approximately 7:25 p.m., he and his partner were driving westbound on Wingohocking street, approaching the intersection of Wingokocking street and 19th street. Officer Zgleszewski saw Appellee exit a corner store and begin to walk eastbound on Wingohocking street towards the officers. Officer Zgleszewski observed an “L” shaped bulge in the front of Appellee’s waistband that appeared to be a possible firearm. As the officers continued to drive forward on the street towards Appellee, Appellee quickly turned around and began walking in the opposite direction and then northbound on 9th street after he reached the intersection.

The officers did not activate their car siren but pulled up next to Appellee. Officer Zgleszewski exited the car and began to approach Appellee. Appellee continued to walk down the street and began to look back in Officer Zgleszewski’s direction. Officer Zgleszewski stated, “come here” and simultaneously, Appellee fled northbound on foot. Officer Zgleszewski pursued Appellee on foot while his partner followed in the car. During the chase, Appellee reached toward the bulge in the front of his waistband, produced a firearm in his right hand, and continued to run with the firearm in his hand. Officer Zgleszewski continued his pursuit of Appellee, while giving numerous verbal commands to “drop the gun.” As he continued to run, Appellee threw the firearm underneath a parked car. Officer Zgleszewski recovered the discarded firearm. Appellee was apprehended and arrested by Officer Zgleszewski’s partner.

These were ruled "mere encounters" rather than "investigatory detentions".

Except there the officer's suspicion is that Joyner has a gun and he flees before the officer is out of the car and seems to be the reason for the encounter.

With KC we don't seem to have a timeline when the officer developed a suspicion about a gun in KC's waistband.

I'm not clear why a reasonable youth wouldn't feel free to leave the KC detention, but would feel free to leave the Joyner encounter. After an officer sees Joyner, and Joyner starts waking in the opposite direction, the officer reverses and follows asks if he's carrying a gun, and exits the patrol vehicle.

Both still flee.

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