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I'd be up for debating you on the other side of this, not in a "please help me break out of my shell and get laid" kind of way, but more like "finally, a chance to talk about weird sociopolitical theories online".
Feminism found itself arguing a basically equivalent version of your motte-and-bailey fifteen years ago, but about men instead of women. "All men are rapists! Well, maybe not technically ALL men, but enough to matter. Imagine a bowl of M&M's..." These arguments tended to fall flat in the face of actually observing what most men are like, so they found a more compelling equivalent: "rape culture".
In terms of today's discussion, it basically goes like this. When you sleep with a woman, you're also forced to hand her one of those big red imaginary buttons from a thought experiment. If she presses the button any time in the next 10 to 20 years, you die a painful death, and she receives a million dollars and the universal admiration of everyone in her peer group. (For classic MRA types the button was often labelled "divorce", with maybe a spice of "common-law" for good measure. For modern volcels it's usually "accusation". Society offers many flavors of button.)
It's not really the fault of any individual woman that this is the case--certainly not any of the women you'd be handing buttons to. Maybe if you dig hard enough you could find the specific key members of the feminist movement that architected this system, but for all intents and purposes it's just a thing that happens that you have no real control over. You can't even blame them for pressing it, really; I'd certainly be tempted to.
Some people accept that risk, and that's okay. (Like people who enjoy skydiving or African safaris, I wish them all the best with their needlessly dangerous hobby.) Maybe some people have enough clairvoyance to accurately identify women who will never, ever be tempted to press the button; maybe some people have enough money or power to withstand the effects of the button, like those billionaires who hung out on Epstein's island.
But you're not either of those things. ("I'm not?" I've confused myself about what pronouns to use for this thought experiment, sorry.) The expected value of dating is pretty freaking bad, compared to the other options modern society offers for satiating loneliness. The longer you ("I"?) continue with this strategy, the less attractive it looks; the costs of reorienting your life towards dating increase and the probability of success decreases. (Maybe you/I will get wizard powers at 30, or become way more attractive at 40; we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.)
Don't hate the player, hate the game!
Maybe this is where the right and the left end up agreeing, but I do believe ALL men are rapists. I have rape fantasies. Though they’re mostly like being an explorer and having captured tribal girls - Columbus had an account of giving one to his buddy. No rape fantasy of raping within my tribe.
The thing I would disagree with the left is its “rape culture”. No men will just rape in a state of anarchy. It’s actually civilization and tradition and policing power that reigns in men’s sexual thirst. There is an “anti-rape culture”.
Though I’m religious from a cultural viewpoint I like to think like I am playing Civilization and when I choose a religion it comes with certain buffs. The American religious buff in the mid-20th century was a strong middle class by reigning in both male and female sexuality to monogamy.
Your failure to include a comma inverts the meaning of that sentence and makes it inconsistent with the rest of the paragraph.
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Well, at the very least here’s a n=1 disproof with myself as someone who hasn’t had anything remotely like that and who finds rape porn less arousing than consensual. (Rape porn with real actors is actively a turnoff.)
More generally the vibe I get is that men on the whole really don’t get off to rape.
I’m not saying that modern man is a rapists. I am saying it’s in our nature.
We live in a society where we have strong socialization not rape. Men with guns prevent us from raping.
If you were a dozen strong men with pointy sticks in prehistorical times and you came across 6 weak men with wives you would probably kill them and take the girls.
You say you wouldn’t rape but you have been cultured not to rape. I believe you that you wouldn’t rape.
This is our ancestral reality. Anthropologist goes into Amazon to live with tribes untouched by modernity. Finds they are all violent and rapey.
https://x.com/sfliberty/status/2104696760799031713?s=46
Thats an extreme simplification of Napoloen Chagnon's research.
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The best dating advice for a teenage boy is to tell them to start selling drugs.
Unless you're religious, in that case you'd better start working on the arranged marriage.
There is no logical argument not to defect in the society-wide prisoner's dilemma if there is no recognized objective morality.
Do what you have to do and let the journalists decide if you were a good criminal or a bad cop.
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I no-joke think that the current rape culture cases du jour, Clavicular, The Tate Bros. and The Cornell 7 are going to probably dissolve the last illusions around the female sexual selection process and will probably finally nuke intergender relations, or force some kind of reckoning. We're basically re-litigating "MeToo" but with a very different social environment.
They're mostly very noncentral examples of 'coerced' or nonconsensual sex.
In the first, she went out to the budding celebrity guy's house, stayed there and never asked to leave, drank alcohol willingly (she claims he said it was water, but that claim doesn't hold any), and the 'worst' he is accused of doing is penetrating her while she was asleep, already in his bed. And apparently continued to try and engage with him (in hopes of boosting her streamer career) for up to a YEAR after the interactions.
In the second, its more standardized human trafficking allegations, among which is the threat to withhold a passport in exchange for sexual favors, but again, very little evidence that these women were not understanding the nature of the other party.
And in the final one, it was again a case of someone agreeing to sex, including threesomes (being clear, SHE alleges this! She's saying she just lacked capacity to consent!) after AGREEING to take various psychoactive drugs, and otherwise being very open to the activities but then coming back and deciding that no maybe that was not what she wanted after all. So most of these circumstances lack any element of physical coercion or incapacitation, and some have clear indicators of consent present!
Every single one of these situations required the young ladies in question to actively put themselves in the situation for the ultimate allegations to result, and yet to disclaim any agreement to the act at the time.
Any young guy watching these matters unfolding is going to be left in a complete quandry as to when exactly you can legally have sex with a young woman. They're learning:
Don't invite a woman to your house alone and offer her alcohol ever. (i.e. how every successful date ever normally ends)
Don't take a woman's agreement to sex as actual legally enforceable consent if she's the tiniest bit inebriated.
Don't fly a woman out of a different country and then try to seduce her.
The accusations can come flying in months or years later even if you've gotten more confirmations of their consent in the interim.
The risk of engaging in sexual relations is thus extremely high, even if these actual outcomes are rareish.
The rough conclusion they might draw is that a guy can't bang a young woman ever unless she openly initiates it and he just lies there passively, which is the opposite of how women want sexual encounters to go!
Basically, we're kind of hitting the apotheosis of whether women can ever be held accountable for their own decisions or not. If young women can't be trusted to control their intake of alcohol or drugs, and will continue to hang around frat houses, around famous streamers, or around known abusive pimps and 'agree' to sex with them despite not actually wanting it... OR if they're going to agree to such and then utterly lie about it later,
Then why exactly are we giving such creatures any autonomy around their mate-selection at all? The outcomes speak for themselves.
And this is all on the tail of the Lindsay Clancy affair.
The Clavicular case is taking place in Massachussets, same place as the Clancy Trial. How would the media react if he raises the insanity defense, that he was just overpowered by his hormones and wasn't in control of his actions at the time? The cojones it would take to make that argument.
Hey, if its a viable defense for allegedly murdering children I don't see why it couldn't apply to sexual assault.
(also, look at the female support for Clancy, including from the jurors themselves to back up my assertion that women are more monolithic)
It's well that you're willing to dig all these details up but unfortunately the average young guy isn't. He is likely to be indoctrinated by mainstream liberal lipstick feminism, as are his parents. He's an NPC normie who usually only reads the headlines. If not, he maybe reads or skims through the article itself but again, it's likely to present a lipstick feminist perspective on the whole issue. Only a tiny minority will go down the rabbit hole and investigate the incident at hand, digging up online reports, public police or court documents, reading posts about it on dissident and decidedly anti-feminist sites etc. Most normies will only care to learn the most basic details and then dismiss the entire matter as another case of evil, toxic, woman-hating chuds violently raping unsuspecting blameless virginal women they first got drunk or something. Again, I want to believe you and I think you have a point about larger long-term trends but I suggest that we be realistic about this.
The current crop of Gen Z males is the least feminist of any currently-living generation.
Clavicular, in particular (hey that rhymes!) is a MAJOR public figure in their world. And he has the ability, if he wants, to publicize any particular detail of his case he wants.
Which...isn't exactly saying much. Also, this survey seems to actually merely prove that this crop is the least feminist when compared to their female counterparts, doesn't it?
...which is only going to be watched by his loyal fans who already believe in him.
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Your linked page appears to say exactly the opposite—that they're tied for first place.
themselves as feminists (%)
Read the actual opinions they hold.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/feb/01/gen-z-boys-and-men-more-likely-than-baby-boomers-to-believe-feminism-harmful-says-poll
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How does Fanduel or Draftkings make gambling transactions stick on an inebriated person with the model of consent used for sexual assault in these cases?
I more broadly wonder who one can consent to gambling if they can't even understand what the odds mean in true numerical terms.
Should one have to pass a statistics class to legally place bets? MAYBE!
Even if you know the odds going in, if you're inebriated and have any outcome regret then Fanduel has Financially Raped you.
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