This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
[BBC News] Violent clashes, looting and buildings ablaze in France as more than 1,200 arrested after protests
Again the ressentiment of the banlieues has spilled out into the rest of France (again), normally so distant, so deliberately and proudly ignorant, in that distinctly French way.
Some observations:
The Anglo press seems to have no qualms calling this largely violent and destructive rioting. There’s the BBC headline above, but even CNN leads with the subtitle ‘riots spread across major cities’ and the imagery of the burning Limoges town hall, a beautiful example of classical architecture that has now fallen victim to the decisions of 1960s, only via a longer and more expensive form of demolition. Other websites are similarly descriptive, a far cry from mostly peaceful protests. The New York Times says “France reels from largest riots in years”. Perhaps this is the clarity of distance speaking, perhaps the end of Woke I, perhaps liberals get more upset about Paris burning than Minneapolis. I suspect a combination of all three.
In general, Anglo elites, certainly liberal ones, have more exposure to the urban underclass than French elites do. The French sent them all to the suburbs to be forgotten so that the XVI could be preserved in perpetuity for themselves. Yes, there are a few homeless, some African touts, a couple of bad neighborhoods around big railroad stations, but by and large much of inner Paris is - riots aside - actually nicer, safer and better maintained than it was ten or twenty years ago. By contrast, in Britain or America elite housing and business districts in the urban core routinely abut absolute shitholes full of the worst scum these societies have to offer. Yes there are suburbs far away from the chaos, but those exist in every country and true bourgeois professionals consider them crass anyway. You can live in the West Village, possibly the most expensive neighborhood per square foot in America, and still be regularly accosted by scary homeless schizophrenic drug addicted people, who were also seemingly still in control of about half of Washington Square Park earlier this year the last time I went home. In San Francisco the Tenderloin is in the middle of the one of city’s central commercial districts, tech executives (some of whom live in Palo Alto but plenty of whom do actually have houses in San Francisco proper) have homeless people break into cars outside their $4m homes to defecate on the seat and rummage through their storage. In London, section 8 equivalent housing sits next to $20m mansions, too. Lib elites, for all their faults, actually confront more of their poor decisions in Anglo countries than in France, where the standard approach seems to be to just pretend the problem doesn’t exist.
That is not to say, at all, that they make any better decisions. But SF liberal elites actually have to “and that’s a good thing”, which while delusional, involves a modicum more reflection than the head-in-the-sand policies of those who have and do run the fifth republic. There is a form of exposed ridiculousness in America because someone actually has to explain, with a straight face, why enforcing the law on broken tail lights is racist. In France, the equivalent policy would be that the police in the banlieues would just quietly decide they didn’t have the resources to enforce it.
I actually think a lot of these demographics we see in this rioting accurately reflect the composition of under-25 year olds in major French cities. France bans all statistics on this kind of thing (see above), but demographic researchers have often suggested that the population of non-European first, second, third etc generation migrants in France is broadly quite similar to the equivalents in countries where governments do collect actual data, like the UK and Germany. Slightly higher, yes, but not substantially so. So if perhaps 21% of the UK is non-European, maybe the assumption was that it was 25% in France. I think it’s more like 35% in France, and I think among under 25s it’s probably more like 50%.
One can’t deny that at least a noticeable minority of these rioters appear to be ethnic French. One thing one increasingly notices in a lot of European cities with native minorities, and London is a good example, is that the indigenous working class who remain largely assimilate with the migrant, typically Muslim, community, not the other way around. This makes intuitive sense, the white is deracinated and atomized, the Ummah is a after all a multicultural enterprise, and various South Asian and Arab Muslim parents are usually relatively racist against the other major ethnic group in these neighborhoods and so would far rather a daughter or son marry a white convert than, say, a British Somali. Anecdotally, I see small but growing numbers of white British Muslim, including many in South Asian dress, around parts of east London like Stratford now (yes, there are ginger Arabs, but I know an Anglo-Celtic phenotype when I see one). One of our office security guards is one of them, from Dagenham (one of the remaining enclaves of the former cockney London working class). He has converted to Islam, grown a beard, showed me pictures on his Instagram of his wedding and wife, who I think is Syrian. In the coming years and decades - and this is in part what Submission is about - many more of the remaining native populations will choose to assimilate themselves to this stronger, more forceful, more self-assured and ultimately more vital culture.
There has been a lot of Raspail-posting on Twitter about these events, “they will burn your beautiful oak door” etc. I think what Raspail was correct about versus the ‘clash of civilizations’ types (they were right about some things, it must be said, but the particularly Islamic character of what is coming in Western Europe is not yet fully clear) is that a lot of this destruction is just a combination of entropy and lack of care or desire to care, rather than a particularly ideological hatred. Yes, there are educated 27 year old liberal hijabis at the Sorbonne well-versed in critical theory who can justify the burning of a 19th century city hall on the basis of anti-colonial resistance and the Franco-imperialist pacification of Algeria, but the rioting on the ground is primarily driven by rage, greed, and a fundamental lack of care or concern for the civilization, or the remnants of the civilization, in which these people live. This is something those indigenous French rioters, who have assimilated into another civilization (whether they have converted formally or merely abandoned their own identity for the void), also reject.
We often forget that in the great historic conversions to Islam, it was overwhelmingly the converted natives who burned their temples and shrines and idols, who slaughtered their recalcitrant priests. We must expect more of that.
It continues to be marvelously unbelievable how deeply dedicated the western liberal democracies are to ensuring that boomers have a comfortable and cushy final 20-30 years of life.
I have posted on here before how this has become my ultimate blackpill and has turned me into a single issue voter. Almost every single pressing issue we face is downstream of this boomer retirement idolatry.
Shall I go down the list?
Housing - if a boomer’s house value goes down by a single dollar it is a genocide.
Health care - if we don’t keep them alive for infinity years with free healthcare and infinity third world immigrants to wipe their asses Jesus will weep.
National debt/fiscal policy - obviously they deserve to have free money in their accounts every month, with zero means-testing. After all, they PAID INTO IT (I can’t actually blame them too much for this, it’s sold that way by the government, but social security insurance was always a tax in all but name)
I hope the connection to France and these protests is clear. Would these third world behaviors and riots still occur? Maybe. But would those people even be here in the first place if we didn’t have the need for infinity dollars to boomer retirement and housing values? Infinity health care for them? Would the productive young people still feel demoralized about the future if they could afford a house and their government actually gave a shit about their future beyond just extracting and directing their productive capacity to ensuring old people get to enjoy 30 years of retirement (really it’s limitless if you can live long enough. Enjoy your free money and free healthcare and free African ass wiper).
Hyperbole aside, I am skeptical of the claim that it's the interest of boomers which are driving housing policy. To be sure, those boomers who bought houses between 1968 and 1995 have seen tremendous appreciation in home values, but there are other possible reasons for this increase other than legislative decisions aimed at serving the boomers.
A more likely scenario, in my opinion, is the urbanization trend which has been going on for quite some time now. For work, school, and cultural opportunities, lots of people want to live near big cities like New York, which arguably drives up the price of housing. An interesting example of this occurs in Israel, which has a much smaller overall percentage of baby boomers than the United States or Western Europe. And a government which is very much pro-growth. Nevertheless, it's crazy expensive to buy a house or apartment in Tel Aviv. And why not? That's where the fancy jobs are; that's where the nice restaurants are; etc.
So I guess I would ask for your evidence/argument for why housing shortages are due to legislative prioritization of baby boomers and not other causes such as urbanization.
This was an issue 20 years ago, well before the first wave of boomers became eligible for Medicare. Of course, if your argument is simply that setting up the entire Social Security system created an entitlement program with a devoted constituency, making it difficult to cut even when fiscally advisable, then of course I would have to agree. At the moment it's the boomers who are benefiting but pretty soon Generation X will start becoming eligible for Medicare. And I am pretty confident that Generation X will be pretty adamant about receiving those benefits.
I think there is means-testing in the sense that the government imposes a progressive tax on social security benefits. But anyway, as with Medicare this doesn't really seem like a Boomer problem so much as a systemic issue which resulted from decisions made back during the 1930s.
By the way, according to the AI, the annual program cost of Social Security is $1.609 billion while the annual receipts are $1.449 billion. Which is not ideal but it doesn't seem like a massive crisis waiting to happen. Just speculating, but I would guess the gap could be largely fixed through a modest increase in retirement age and higher taxes for wealthy recipients of Social Security.
That being said, given the rapid progress in AI, I doubt it's really necessary to increase retirement ages. Rather, I think that the government should get ready to start reducing the retirement age. Because the best case scenario with AI is that there is mass long-term unemployment. Which in practice means that the government needs to find a way to get money to people, and the obvious way to do this is to make use of the social welfare programs which are already set up: Social Security; Unemployment Insurance; etc.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link